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  • #16
    Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
    How many times can we vote in each round?
    A maximum of once in each poll, in each round. There are 6 rounds, so that means 32 votes in Round 1, 16 votes in round 2, 8 in Round 3 and so on until we get just one vote each in the Final. If you stay with the Campaign and vote fully in every round, then your vote total will be 32+16+8+4+2+1, which is 63 votes if my mental arithmetic is correct.

    I'm already starting to think about which two tanks might end up as the finalists but even before then I reckon rounds 2, 3, 4 and 5 will all be very interesting.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

    Comment


    • #17
      Progress Report

      Hi everyone,

      First up, I have to say I'm still very pleased indeed to see the level of enthusiasm and participation for this campaign. Come to think of it, "very pleased indeed" has become something of an understatement. I'm over the moon about it.
      As of about one hour before this post, we had 110 participating members who have between them cast over 2,700 votes across the 32 Round 1 polls. Participation rates varied from 71 to 97 votes per poll.

      By this stage and with barely a week before Round 1 closure, I think it is possible to predict most outcomes with at least reasonable certainty. Only two of the polls are anywhere near what might be considered "close". They are:

      • In Group 1, the French Saint Chamond (42 votes when I last looked) and the German A7V (45 votes). This three vote margin is small enough that a turn-around - though not highly likely - is still a fair possibility IMO.
      • The only other poll that could be described as anywhere near 'close' is in Group 4; the Chinese ZTZ 96 (37 votes at last look) and the Japanese Type 90 (45 votes). This is a more substantial, though not by any means completely comfortable margin. I see a small possibility of turn-around but I certainly wouldn't put my own money on it.


      Aside from those two, the remaining 30 polls look to me to be just a matter of exact counts rather than final outcomes now, because the margins vary between "very comfortable" and "landslide" proportions.

      I spent a good part of my morning today, checking through all the results and setting up the pairings for Round 2, which is scheduled to begin next weekend. I will announce these in a separate post.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A final note and request to all participating members. (If you are 100 percent certain that you've already voted in all the polls you want to, please disregard this request):

      There is no rule saying how many of the polls members have to vote in. Obviously, you can participate in as few or as many as you like. However, as you might guess I would naturally prefer as high a level of participation as reasonably possible from each member; consistent with what they feel comfortable with of course. The main reason is, I think the higher the level of participation the better because this will give us results that most faithfully and accurately represent the cross-section of participating members' opinions.


      In connection with this, I have noticed a few members who have voted in all but a handful of the 32 Round 1 polls. This could be because they didn't want to vote in those remaining few but more likely, it's because they have overlooked them, so please:

      If you think you have voted in all 32, or intended to but you are not sure what you have and have not done; if you don't have the time to check through all 32 polls you only have to ask me. I am recording progressive results daily, on an Excel spreadsheet and I have instant one-page visibility of all members' votes across all 32 polls. I'll soon be able to let you know if you've missed any.
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Best regards to all, and thanks for your enthusiastic participation.

      panther3485
      Last edited by panther3485; 20 Jul 14, 02:46.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

      Comment


      • #18
        Pairings for Round 2

        Here are the pairings I've lined up for Round 2:


        Group 1 1916-1938

        Poll #33 Tanks Mk I-V Britain vs Vickers 6-Ton Britain

        Poll #34 TNH/LT-38 Czechoslovakia vs Christie Mediums 28/36/T3 USA

        Poll #35 Renault FT-17 France vs Char 2C France

        Poll #36 A7V Germany (or St Chamond France) vs BT-5/7 Soviet Union/Russia


        Group 2 1939-1945

        Poll #37 Churchill Britain vs Tiger tanks Germany

        Poll #38 Cromwell & Comet Britain vs PzKpfw IV Germany

        Poll #39 PzKpfw 38(t) Germany vs M4 Sherman USA

        Poll #40 T-34 Soviet Union/Russia vs KV tanks Soviet Union/Russia


        Group 3 1946-1979

        Poll #41 Centurion Britain vs T-34-85 Soviet Union/Russia

        Poll #42 Chieftain Britain vs T-72 Soviet Union/Russia

        Poll #43 Leopard I Germany vs T-62 Soviet Union/Russia

        Poll #44 T-64 Soviet Union/Russia vs M24 Chaffee USA


        Group 4 1980 - present

        Poll #45 Challenger 1/2 Britain vs M60A1/A3 USA

        Poll #46 Leopard 2 Germany vs Merkava I/II/III/IV Israel

        Poll #47 Type 90 Japan (or ZTZ 96 China) vs T-55 Russia

        Poll #48 T-64 Russia vs M1A1/A2 Abrams USA


        Bearing in mind the following:

        Round 1 - 64 candidates in 4 separate groups as currently formatted. (4 wks)
        Round 2 - 32 candidates still separated into the same 4 groups
        (3 wks)
        Round 3 - 16 candidates, 2 groups (1 & 2 combined, 3 & 4 combined)
        (3 wks)
        Round 4 - (Quarter-final) 8 candidates, now in a single group
        (2 wks)
        Round 5 - (Semi-Final) 4 tanks
        (2 wks)
        Round 6 - (Final) 2 tanks
        (2 wks)

        So after Round 2, there will only be two groups in Round 3 consisting of:
        • Group A 1916-1945 (The 8 winners from Groups 1 & 2 combined) and
        • Group B 1946-present (The 8 winners from Groups 3 & 4 combined)

        ... and from Round 4 (the Quarter-Final) onwards, the remaining candidates will be in a single group.

        Last edited by panther3485; 20 Jul 14, 04:33.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Here are the pairings I've lined up for Round 2:


          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Group 1 1916-1938

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #33 Tanks Mk I-V Britain vs Vickers 6-Ton Britain
          A bit of a no brainer really. The Mk1 was the first and therefore the most important and significant. Other tanks can only be improvements.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #34 TNH/LT-38 Czechoslovakia vs Christie Mediums 28/36/T3 USA
          Just because of its suspension I'm going to give it to the Christie.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #35 Renault FT-17 France vs Char 2C France
          Another no-brainer. Ft-17 all the way.
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #36 A7V Germany (or St Chamond France) vs BT-5/7 Soviet Union/Russia
          BT-5/7 for being the parent of the T-34.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Group 2 1939-1945

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #37 Churchill Britain vs Tiger tanks Germany
          I think the Churchill was the best tank of WW2, but I believe the Tiger was more significant, so the cat probably gets my vote here. The exception may be that the Churchill was really the first mother of really specialized engineering afv's.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #38 Cromwell & Comet Britain vs PzKpfw IV Germany
          Cromwells and Comets may have be better than the Panzer IV, but far less significant in both numbers and impact on WW2. The German kit wins again imho.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #39 PzKpfw 38(t) Germany vs M4 Sherman USA
          I like the 38t and think it has been overlooked as a tank in WW2. It was instrumental in German victories 39-41. The M4 was instrumental in Allied victories 42-45. Therefore the M4 wins here, because it's one louder...er... 1 year greater service in WW2, plus being a useful bit of kit in Korea.
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #40 T-34 Soviet Union/Russia vs KV tanks Soviet Union/Russia
          Another no brainer, with the T-34 coming tops. The T-34 should win this group.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Group 3 1946-1979

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #41 Centurion Britain vs T-34-85 Soviet Union/Russia
          Centurion should win the Group 3 vote.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #42 Chieftain Britain vs T-72 Soviet Union/Russia
          If only the Chieftain had a decent engine. T-72 is therefore the winner, because it works.
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #43 Leopard I Germany vs T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
          Can't decide yet.
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #44 T-64 Soviet Union/Russia vs M24 Chaffee USA
          The Chaffee is one of my favourite tanks, but its significance is next to nothing. T-64 wins here.

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Group 4 1980 - present

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #45 Challenger 1/2 Britain vs M60A1/A3 USA
          The Challengers are better but the M60 has been around longer. Can't decide yet.
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #46 Leopard 2 Germany vs Merkava I/II/III/IV Israel
          The Merkava is tried and tested. It's probably the better tank, but the Leo 2 sales figures probably mean its more significant.
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #47 Type 90 Japan (or ZTZ 96 China) vs T-55 Russia
          T-55 based on numbers alone

          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Poll #48 T-64 Russia vs M1A1/A2 Abrams USA
          Abrams should win group 4 imho. Its both totally proven, unlike the Leopard 2, and the first of the latest generation of tanks.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post





            A bit of a no brainer really. The Mk1 was the first and therefore the most important and significant. Other tanks can only be improvements.


            Just because of its suspension I'm going to give it to the Christie.


            Another no-brainer. Ft-17 all the way.

            BT-5/7 for being the parent of the T-34.




            I think the Churchill was the best tank of WW2, but I believe the Tiger was more significant, so the cat probably gets my vote here. The exception may be that the Churchill was really the first mother of really specialized engineering afv's.


            Cromwells and Comets may have be better than the Panzer IV, but far less significant in both numbers and impact on WW2. The German kit wins again imho.


            I like the 38t and think it has been overlooked as a tank in WW2. It was instrumental in German victories 39-41. The M4 was instrumental in Allied victories 42-45. Therefore the M4 wins here, because it's one louder...er... 1 year greater service in WW2, plus being a useful bit of kit in Korea.

            Another no brainer, with the T-34 coming tops. The T-34 should win this group.




            Centurion should win the Group 3 vote.


            If only the Chieftain had a decent engine. T-72 is therefore the winner, because it works.

            Can't decide yet.

            The Chaffee is one of my favourite tanks, but its significance is next to nothing. T-64 wins here.




            The Challengers are better but the M60 has been around longer. Can't decide yet.

            The Merkava is tried and tested. It's probably the better tank, but the Leo 2 sales figures probably mean its more significant.

            T-55 based on numbers alone


            Abrams should win group 4 imho. Its both totally proven, unlike the Leopard 2, and the first of the latest generation of tanks.
            Thanks for the run-up, Nick.

            You do realize that you don't have to vote in Round 2 just yet?

            ... but I can't argue with your enthusiasm.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
              By this stage and with barely a week before Round 1 closure, I think it is possible to predict most outcomes with at least reasonable certainty.
              But a lot of these are wrong.

              Nice work!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
                But a lot of these are wrong.

                Nice work!
                Thanks.

                Can't say I agree with all of the outcomes either; but we gets what we gets. Consensus can be a beautiful thing, when it comes together.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  Thanks for the run-up, Nick.

                  You do realize that you don't have to vote in Round 2 just yet?

                  ... but I can't argue with your enthusiasm.
                  My pleasure .

                  The only issue I have with this poll is that the French FT-17, the Father of all modern tanks, is one I cannot vote for to win this poll. It was superb for a WW1 tank, but the fact remains it is generally overlooked. Perhaps due to its continued use in WW2.

                  My opinion is simply due to the fact that while it was a significant improvement upon the British design, it did not have the impact of the first tanks on the battlefield.
                  How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                  Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                    My pleasure .

                    The only issue I have with this poll is that the French FT-17, the Father of all modern tanks, is one I cannot vote for to win this poll. It was superb for a WW1 tank, but the fact remains it is generally overlooked. Perhaps due to its continued use in WW2.

                    My opinion is simply due to the fact that while it was a significant improvement upon the British design, it did not have the impact of the first tanks on the battlefield.
                    Is your issue really with this poll; or is it with the opinions of some of the other members who look as if they might want to put the FT-17 in top spot?

                    As for its impact on the battlefield, in itself during WW1 alone I might very well be persuaded to agree. However, if one chose to look at this a certain way one might argue that its real impact and significance was to pioneer the basic layout of almost all successful future tanks whose collective impact has been - I think we would have to agree - very significant indeed.
                    Last edited by panther3485; 21 Jul 14, 04:32.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                      Is your issue really with this poll; or is it with the opinions of some of the other members who look as if they might want to put the FT-17 in top spot?

                      As for its impact on the battlefield, in itself during WW1 alone I might be persuaded to agree. However, if one chose to look at this a certain way one might argue that its real impact and significance was to pioneer the basic layout of almost all successful future tanks whose collective impact has been - I think we would have to agree - very significant indeed.
                      The MkI is the most significant because it was the first. The FT-17 was the next most significant tank of all time, due to its design and crew layout.

                      Imho (in descending order) the 4 tanks that should head this poll are the Mk1, FT-17, T-34 and M1 Abrams, as each represents a massive contribution to tank design, tank philosophy or sheer impact. However, two of my top 4 are in one category, hence my issue with the poll, which is not really a problem, since I can now vote Centurion for the group 3 stage. I like the Centurion, and believe it is probably the best tank of all time to date, but in the context of this poll, I would rate it no 5 .
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                        The MkI is the most significant because it was the first. The FT-17 was the next most significant tank of all time, due to its design and crew layout.

                        Imho (in descending order) the 4 tanks that should head this poll are the Mk1, FT-17, T-34 and M1 Abrams, as each represents a massive contribution to tank design, tank philosophy or sheer impact. However, two of my top 4 are in one category, hence my issue with the poll, which is not really a problem, since I can now vote Centurion for the group 3 stage. I like the Centurion, and believe it is probably the best tank of all time to date, but in the context of this poll, I would rate it no 5 .
                        I see your point, but given the poll structure and approach I couldn't really have the British Mks I-V and the French FT-17 in separate groups; and even if I did, they wouldn't stay separate for long because the 4 groups will soon be amalgamated; first into two and then into one. And only one tank can come out on top by the end of this campaign. Anyone making book on which one that'll be?

                        That said, I guess we can still consider which was the most significant/influential tank (and therefore the "winner") for each group which obviously brings us back to your conundrum and we've just gone around in a circle.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Spoiler Alert!!!!

                          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                          Here are the pairings I've lined up for Round 2:


                          ... and from Round 4 (the Quarter-Final) onwards, the remaining candidates will be in a single group.

                          You're giving the game away man!
                          Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                          Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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                          • #28
                            If you haven't voted in Round 1 yet

                            You are almost out of time!


                            The polls for Round 1 will start closing early on the 26 July EDST.
                            Last edited by panther3485; 26 Jul 14, 10:06.
                            Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                            Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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                            • #29
                              Round 1 now closed, Round 2 open.

                              Thanks Gary.

                              Guys, Round 1 is now closed.

                              I hereby declare:
                              Round 2
                              OPEN!
                              If you missed Round 1, it's not too late!
                              You can still participate!
                              Just make sure to vote in all 5 remaining rounds, including this one.
                              (Rounds 2 - 6)
                              Vote, discuss if you want; but above all: Enjoy!

                              Last edited by panther3485; 26 Jul 14, 10:16.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                And for you early birds, don't forget to check page 2 of this section.
                                Once some new comments are posted they will all move to the top of the list.

                                Enjoy!
                                Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                                Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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