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Rnd 1 Grp 4 - Merkava I/II/III/IV (Israel) vs T-72 & T-90 (Russia)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp 4 - Merkava I/II/III/IV (Israel) vs T-72 & T-90 (Russia)

    Round 1, Group 4: Merkava I/II/III/IV (Israel) vs T-72 & T-90 (Russia)


    The Merkava is Israel’s own unique and highly distinctive MBT. It is powerfully armed and very well protected, with decent mobility. The layout, with the engine at the front, is unconventional but offers certain advantages. One is the extra frontal protection factor; another is that it allows the relatively spacious crew compartment to be entered from the rear of the tank and additional personnel – such as, for example, the evacuation of wounded – can be carried in an emergency. Merkava tanks have seen a very considerable amount of action and the design has proven itself very well indeed.

    The T-72 has already been a candidate in Group 3 and for this group, it is combined with the T-90 which was derived from it and represents a very logical progression. T-90 is the most modern tank in Russian regular service. It incorporates some of the developments and lessons of the T-80 program but employs a diesel engine. Advanced features include thermal sights and improved composite armour. Several countries have purchased the type; one of the largest buyers being India, which has subsequently begun to produce the T-90 itself.


    On the one hand, then, we have the quite unconventional but solid and thoroughly proven Merkava; while on the other hand we have the latest serving Russian MBT, along with large numbers of its older sibling still in service.

    Which of those do you think, should survive Round 1?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!

    Which of them is the most significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #54 - Merkava I/II/III/IV (Israel)

    Service Entry – 1979
    Weight – 65 metric tons (Mk. IV)
    Top Speed – 64 km/h (40 mph)
    Main Armament – 105mm gun (initially); 120mm smoothbore afterwards
    No. Produced – 2,000+

    For further info, check here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava
    http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/mo...el/Merkava.php

    Merkava I


    Merkava II


    Merkava III


    Merkava IV




    Candidate #61 - T-72 & T-90 (Russia)

    (Data for T-90)
    Service Entry – 1993
    Weight – 47.5 metric tons
    Top Speed – 65 km/h (40 mph)
    Main Armament – 125mm smoothbore
    No. Produced – 2,000 (approx.)

    For further info, check these:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90
    http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t90/

    Yugoslav M-84 (version of T-72)


    Polish T-72


    T-90


    T-90





    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!


    89
    Merkava I/II/III/IV (Israel)
    67.42%
    60
    T-72 & T-90 (Russia)
    32.58%
    29

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 29 Jun 14, 04:03.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Devious!

    I see now that you've paired these up to maximize the debate!
    (Man I hate having to THINK on the weekends. )
    Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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    • #3
      This one was extremely difficult as well. I eventually went Merkava simply due to the fact that the Israelis should know what they are doing, and everyone notices success.
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
        This one was extremely difficult as well. I eventually went Merkava simply due to the fact that the Israelis should know what they are doing, and everyone notices success.
        While the early voting seems to agree with you, I've another take on this based on the concept of this contest.

        Like the S-Tank, the Merkava should properly be seen as a local adaptation to the needs of a particular force in a particular setting. This is why it is neither widely copied nor widely exported.

        The T-72 and it's descendants are influential in two ways. Not only are they used in a number of armies, they've been 'the enemy' that a number of Western systems were designed to defeat for a couple of decades.
        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

        Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
          I see now that you've paired these up to maximize the debate!
          (Man I hate having to THINK on the weekends. )
          Yes indeed.

          Some of my matches may seem a little bit ... well ... questionable. Some of them are questionable.
          However, I did put a reasonable amount of thought in and designed this poll set to be, in some places almost childishly obvious but in others, unexpected, off-beat and maybe slightly puzzling on occasion.

          That said, regardless of the pairings it's the membership who will make all the really important calls. Also, although I did the pairings for this first round almost entirely without feedback, I'll be quite open to member feedback in the lead up to Round 2.

          Guys, when the time comes close, if you have any suggestions please feel free to post them in the Introduction thread, which has been 'stickied' so it stays at the top. No guaratees that I'll accept every or even any particular suggestion but they'll all get due consideration, I promise.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
            While the early voting seems to agree with you, I've another take on this based on the concept of this contest.

            Like the S-Tank, the Merkava should properly be seen as a local adaptation to the needs of a particular force in a particular setting. This is why it is neither widely copied nor widely exported.

            The T-72 and it's descendants are influential in two ways. Not only are they used in a number of armies, they've been 'the enemy' that a number of Western systems were designed to defeat for a couple of decades.
            Certainly see your POV.
            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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            • #7
              Another hard choice, but I don't see the T-72 as being as versatile.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                Another hard choice, but I don't see the T-72 as being as versatile.

                Pruitt
                Plus the T-72 was an evolutionary design, but the M brought out some real innovations.
                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                • #9
                  No offence to the Russians, but the Merkava line are a perfect example of creating an AFV to work for your needs, and not because it's how it's always been done. The mass exporting of the T72 aside,(just because they're cheap and available doesn't mean they're the best) The Israelis had used other nations tanks (USA and UK) and had learned the vehicles of both nations, what they needed, wanted, and what would simply be nice to have. They learned it primarily by having to fight for their survival.

                  I believe the Merkava line is the result of those lessons. Unlike the other AFV producing nations, the Israelis have had to build a weapons system that produces results, protects it's crew, and is cost effective.
                  BoRG
                  "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
                    While the early voting seems to agree with you, I've another take on this based on the concept of this contest.

                    Like the S-Tank, the Merkava should properly be seen as a local adaptation to the needs of a particular force in a particular setting. This is why it is neither widely copied nor widely exported.

                    The T-72 and it's descendants are influential in two ways. Not only are they used in a number of armies, they've been 'the enemy' that a number of Western systems were designed to defeat for a couple of decades.
                    Agreed. Tough pairing, though.

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                    • #11
                      The toughest pairing yet: I eventually opted for the Merkava, but the T-72/T-90 runs it close.
                      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                      Samuel Johnson.

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                      • #12
                        Merkava, despite being one of my favourite tanks, is a bit overrated tank as far as performance is considered. From purely engineering and technical point of view there is nothing extraordinarily about it: it use proven engine and suspensions from other designs, while armor and FCS lagged behind other tanks until latest marks entered service.

                        However, it have influenced the design of other vehicles and mostly doctrine centered on protection of soldiers in IDF, and I think it still have, and it will, influence other tanks in future.

                        Tough choice, but I went with Merkava.
                        It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                        Косово је Србија!
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                        • #13
                          Merekava - it's an innovative machine while the T-90 is an extension of existing Soviet design policies that is near the end of it's design evolutionary capabilities.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                          • #14
                            The Russian tanks were certainly very influential, and the Merkava may have not been top-notch when first produced. But crew survivability, IMHO, is going to be a paradigm in the years to come, and the Merkava was innovative and effective in that. I voted the Merkava.
                            Michele

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                            • #15
                              A tough one. We all know the importance of the T72 and it's offspring. But the Merkavas get the nod for being the right tank for Israel's purposes. Plus, I voted for the T72 elsewhere. Both of these tanks deserve to move forward in the competition.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

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