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Rnd 1 Grp 4 - Leclerc (France) vs T-64 (Russia)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp 4 - Leclerc (France) vs T-64 (Russia)

    Round 1, Group 4: Leclerc (France) vs T-64 (Russia)


    The Leclerc, with its quite distinctive silhouette, is France’s premier Main Battle Tank today. It is also in service with the United Arab Emirates. It is a sophisticated and very modern MBT, comparable to the best tanks in the World. Its protection includes designed-in provision for a ‘modular’ armour pack that allows the tank to receive and exchange various armour upgrades relatively easily. The French have developed their own composite armour types to best meet a variety of threats.

    The T-64 appears in Group 3 of this poll set, as well as here in Group 4. At the time of design and initial service it was extremely advanced in certain key aspects. It also had its fair share of drawbacks. T-64 continues to serve into the present time but mainly with Ukraine, which is believed to have about 1,500 on strength. Over the duration of its service, various updates or ‘upgrade packs’ were applied to the T-64 to prolong its effective life (as shown in the photos below - compare with the first set in Group 3).

    These two tanks are not only very different in appearance, they also were born into two different eras of tank design and development. That said, over the entire history of the tank one would arguably be more significant and/or influential than the other.

    In your opinion, which one?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!

    Which of them is the most significant and/or influential?


    Candidate #52 - Leclerc (France)

    Service Entry – 1992
    Weight – 54.5 – 57.4 metric tons
    Top Speed – 72 km/h (45 mph)
    Main Armament – 120mm smoothbore
    No. Produced – 900 (approx.)

    For further info, check here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_Leclerc
    http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leclerc.htm














    Candidate #60 - T-64 (Russia)

    Service Entry – late 1960’s (limited production); early 1970’s (main series)
    Weight – 38-40 metric tons
    Top Speed – 60 km/h (37 mph)
    Main Armament – 125mm smoothbore (115mm in initial batch)
    No. Produced – 13,000 (approx.)

    For further info, check these:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-64
    http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t64.htm















    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!


    91
    Leclerc (France)
    36.26%
    33
    T-64 (Russia)
    63.74%
    58

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Skoblin; 27 Jun 14, 12:21.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    While the French tank may be the better afv, what those Ruskies are up to is always going to get more notice.
    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

    Comment


    • #3
      The T-64 has a gun/missile launcher. The LeClerc does not. Victor Suvorov liked this tank as well.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #4
        I went with the T-64. Dynamic combat record, wide-spread use.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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        • #5
          The T-64 (no offence to the French) is a proven and influential AFV.
          BoRG
          "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

          Comment


          • #6
            Guys,this is offensive .
            You compare our state of the art BT to a 60's tank,and you think Leclerc's loose?
            Do you really still believe that we 're manufacturing ****?
            I'm dreaming..
            That rug really tied the room together

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
              Guys,this is offensive .
              You compare our state of the art BT to a 60's tank,and you think Leclerc's loose?
              Do you really still believe that we 're manufacturing ****?
              I'm dreaming..
              The T64? Nah! The Leclerc is a whole new ball-game in comparison.

              Paul
              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
              All human ills he can subdue,
              Or with a bauble or medal
              Can win mans heart for you;
              And many a blessing know to stew
              To make a megloamaniac bright;
              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
              The Pixie is a little shite.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                Guys,this is offensive .
                You compare our state of the art BT to a 60's tank,and you think Leclerc's loose?
                Do you really still believe that we 're manufacturing ****?
                I'm dreaming..
                I am inclined to agree. The developed Leclerc is in the Abrams/Challenger / Merkava category. While the T-64 can carry the "Songster" missile the basic design is still twenty years earlier than the French MBT.,
                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                Samuel Johnson.

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                • #9
                  So far I have voted for at least four French tanks, the Renault, the Somua, the AMX 13 and the AMX 30/40. I can't always vote French!

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                    Guys,this is offensive .
                    You compare our state of the art BT to a 60's tank,and you think Leclerc's loose?
                    Do you really still believe that we 're manufacturing ****?
                    I'm dreaming..
                    The point of this poll is not to determine the best vehicle, as was mentioned in the main post. We're after the most significant or influential vehicle. If you think Leclerc has historical clout than a secretive mid-Cold War Soviet tank that's your prerogative, but to my mind T-64, T-72, and T-80 had a huge influence on the tank designs of a number of nations (e.g., US, UK, West Germany, France, etc.). Do I think Leclerc is a better tank? Of course; it's almost 20 years newer. Do I think it is a more significant design than the first Soviet tank to use a carousel autoloader, compound armor, and gun-tube launched missile? No way.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So why opposing this kindda tanks?
                      It seems so obvious for most of you,that the T64 was revolutionary in 1970,why opposing him a French product rather than let's say ,a US M60
                      ?
                      That rug really tied the room together

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                        So why opposing this kindda tanks?
                        It seems so obvious for most of you,that the T64 was revolutionary in 1970,why opposing him a French product rather than let's say ,a US M60
                        ?
                        I voted for the Leclerc only because of the era breakdown. In the other era I voted for the T-64 over the M-48, I'm not sure if you noticed or not, but the T-64 is also against the M-48. Overall though, the T-64 was far more influential and significant than the Leclerc, the T-64 lead to new ideas and created trends it also changed the way NATO planned to fight - even in this era. The Leclerc followed trends, the T-64 set them. I voted for Leclerc in this poll, but I can't fault anyone who went with T-64, If it would have been across all eras I would have voted T-64 without batting an eye.
                        Кто там?
                        Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                        Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                          Guys,this is offensive .
                          You compare our state of the art BT to a 60's tank,and you think Leclerc's loose?
                          Do you really still believe that we 're manufacturing ****?
                          I'm dreaming..
                          I haven't voted yet but speaking for myself, I believe the Leclerc should be seen as easily the better of the two tanks from a technical point of view. And it was designed much later; it is a true 3rd generation MBT.

                          However, this campaign isn't so much about which tanks are better or worse. It is about how significant and influential each tank was. While I would prefer - all other things being equal - not to be in a force of T-64s going up against a force of Leclercs (I'll be in one of the French tanks, thanks ), it could be argued that the T-64 has been a more influential tank than the Leclerc.

                          Nevertheless, we should still be open to information or opinions supporting the proposition, that the Leclerc is more significant and/or more influential than the T-64. And, forgetting the T-64 for a moment, I'd also be very happy to read discussion that the Leclerc is influential enough to go to Round 2 in this tournament.

                          We might also spare a thought for the Italian C1 Ariete, which is a very fine modern MBT indeed. However, last time I looked it was getting less votes than Leclerc.
                          Last edited by panther3485; 30 Jun 14, 06:07.
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                            So why opposing this kindda tanks?
                            It seems so obvious for most of you,that the T64 was revolutionary in 1970,why opposing him a French product rather than let's say ,a US M60
                            ?
                            The Leclerc tank does have some very noteworthy features, though, and some of these features are not found on many other tanks, if any. The exchangeable armour packages, designed into the tank, for a start. Then there is the auto-loader system. While the idea of using an auto-loader to reduce the crew and enable a more compact tank is far from being new, from my reading this French system is the best, fastest and most reliable one.

                            The T-64 does go up against an older and more "ordinary" tank in one of the other polls, the M48 in Group 3.
                            In Group 4, I would not expect it to do quite so well but I have already received a couple of surprises in the voting so far. You can't always pick it.
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For me it's obvious also that the T64,due to his age ,reliability,production figures,is more influential than the Leclerc.
                              To be perfectly fair,T64 had to be challenged against the AMX 30.He would also win the contest..
                              My frog's reaction,beside the fact that i start very easily(....),was due to the fact i didn't understood the goal of the contest.
                              That rug really tied the room together

                              Comment

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