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Rnd 1 Grp 3 - T-72 (Soviet Union/Russia) vs M60/M60A1 (USA)

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  • #16
    Close call. I went with the M-60 because of thew whole Soviet autoloader thing. In combat, rate of fire is critical and that autoloader not only slowed that down but required the turret/weapon to return to reload/neutral position each time, breaking target lock.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #17
      Hull, Markov, and Zaloga allege that the M60 and M60A1 played a large role in the development of the T-62. Marshal V.I. Chuikov, the CinC of the Soviet Army's Ground Forces at the time--and former commander of the 62nd Army, which defended Stalingrad itself--"was infuriated to learn that the [M60] tank was armed with a 105 mm gun, when the standard Soviet medium tank of the period, the T-55, was armed with a 100 mm gun. Furthermore, the thicker frontal armor of the M60A1 turret could not be penetrated by the standard Soviet 100 mm tank gun. This created a crisis atmosphere in the tank industry. Chuikov called the head of the GBTU Main Armor Directorate, Marshal Pavel P. Poluboyarov, into his office in Moscow for a severe dressing down. Poluboyarov mentioned that Vagonka had developed a tank with a 115 mm gun but that there had been problems with the stabilizer. Chuikov...was notoriously short tempered and foul mouthed. He screamed at Poluboyarov, 'Why are you jerking me around over this stabilizer? I don't care if it's mounted on a pig! Just come up with this gun!'"

      T-72 caused some consternation in the west after its debut, but in the US Army the M60 alone bore the responsibility of facing off across the German border with T-55, T-62, T-64, T-72, and T-80 from 1960 until the M1 debuted in 1980. The M60 was a quick and dirty way to get the US government to keep buying tanks when the T95 wasn't ready for production, and it survived two more replacement programs before finally being superceded on the front lines. Both T-72 and M60 have seen a lot of combat, but the M60's tenure as America's premier tank for almost half of the Cold War, and during the period when the Soviets went from conventional T-62s to revolutionary T-64s and beyond gives it the nod here I think. T-72 is commonly thought of as the "economy car" to the T-64 and T-80, but the M60 was all the US was driving for a long and dangerous period.

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      • #18
        This one is a tough one. I prefer the M60 series over the T72s, but I think the T72 has more significance, especially today.
        ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

        BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

        BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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        • #19
          DogDodger persuaded me. It's a tough call though and I could've gone for the T-72 but perhaps the M60 was a bit of an unmoved mover for Soviet tank design; perhaps it lead to a string of them but remained pretty constant itself.
          "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

          --Hávamál

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          • #20
            T-72 for me, the Soviet models were still an impressive package.
            "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
            Ernest Hemingway.

            Sapere aude.

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            • #21
              This one wasn't so easy for me either ...

              But I went with T-72, for reasons roughly similar to the T-64/M48 pairing; except that T-72 - while less innovative for its time of introduction than T-64, was cheaper, more practical and much more widely employed.
              "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
              Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                The Shilleleigh Missile system in the M-60A2 had a dead zone where you could not control the missile below 700 yards. The main gun could fire a 152mm APHE round out to 500 yards. Notice they could not fire between 500 and 700 yards? The good news is I don't thing the fire computer would shake itself to pieces on the M-60A2 like it would the Sheridan.

                Pruitt
                The 152 mm XM409 HEAT-MP (APHE was not manufactured for the 152 mm gun-launcher) had a muzzle velocity of 683 m/s, and its absolute maximum range was just over 9000 m. The M60A2 and M551A1 were equipped with laser rangefinders. Firing a conventional round to 500 m was doable.

                There was a dead zone, but it involved night vision. Vision with available IR lights almost overlapped the missile's minimum range, so the missile was essentially reduced to a daylight-only weapon.

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                • #23
                  Also, smoke and high-explosive rounds were planned but never entered production due to problems uncovered during tests, so so the M409 round became the only conventional combat round aside from the Shillelagh missile. With deployment of the Sheridan to Vietnam, the M625 canister round was developed that contained 10,000 13-grain flechettes (effective up to 400m).
                  It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                  Косово је Србија!
                  Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                  Armored Brigade

                  Armored Brigade Facebook page

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                  • #24
                    Went for the T 72 mainly on the score of the impact it made when it arrived on the scene.

                    Ed.
                    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
                      Hull, Markov, and Zaloga allege that the M60 and M60A1 played a large role in the development of the T-62. Marshal V.I. Chuikov, the CinC of the Soviet Army's Ground Forces at the time--and former commander of the 62nd Army, which defended Stalingrad itself--"was infuriated to learn that the [M60] tank was armed with a 105 mm gun, when the standard Soviet medium tank of the period, the T-55, was armed with a 100 mm gun. Furthermore, the thicker frontal armor of the M60A1 turret could not be penetrated by the standard Soviet 100 mm tank gun. This created a crisis atmosphere in the tank industry. Chuikov called the head of the GBTU Main Armor Directorate, Marshal Pavel P. Poluboyarov, into his office in Moscow for a severe dressing down. Poluboyarov mentioned that Vagonka had developed a tank with a 115 mm gun but that there had been problems with the stabilizer. Chuikov...was notoriously short tempered and foul mouthed. He screamed at Poluboyarov, 'Why are you jerking me around over this stabilizer? I don't care if it's mounted on a pig! Just come up with this gun!'"

                      T-72 caused some consternation in the west after its debut, but in the US Army the M60 alone bore the responsibility of facing off across the German border with T-55, T-62, T-64, T-72, and T-80 from 1960 until the M1 debuted in 1980. The M60 was a quick and dirty way to get the US government to keep buying tanks when the T95 wasn't ready for production, and it survived two more replacement programs before finally being superceded on the front lines. Both T-72 and M60 have seen a lot of combat, but the M60's tenure as America's premier tank for almost half of the Cold War, and during the period when the Soviets went from conventional T-62s to revolutionary T-64s and beyond gives it the nod here I think. T-72 is commonly thought of as the "economy car" to the T-64 and T-80, but the M60 was all the US was driving for a long and dangerous period.
                      Considering the better Centurion was the first to mount the L7 105mm gun, before the M60, and was facing the Warsaw Pact also; should it be that said Marshal V.I. Chuikov, would have been reacting to the former rather than the latter?

                      Paul
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

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                      • #26
                        The T-72 is an attempt to stretch the T44/55/62 series to infinity. It is a cramped design that shoehorns more gun on a tank that doesn't have enough weight and size to really take it.

                        The M60 is the culmination of development of the Patton series (M26/46/47/48) into a very capable tank. The history of combat actions by both vehicles clearly shows which one was developed more successfully.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                          Considering the better Centurion was the first to mount the L7 105mm gun, before the M60, and was facing the Warsaw Pact also; should it be that said Marshal V.I. Chuikov, would have been reacting to the former rather than the latter?
                          It was apparently almost a tie. M60 was accepted into service in 1960, and the upgunning/uparmoring program for Centurion commenced in late 1959. So who knows?

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                          • #28
                            M60/M60A1 (USA)

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                            • #29
                              The M60A1 would have to rank as one of the best tanks in the U.S. arsenal tied with the Abrams.

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                              • #30
                                I chose T 72 , i feel a better Tank.

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