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Rnd 1 Grp 3 - AMX-13 (France) vs M24 Chaffee (USA)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp 3 - AMX-13 (France) vs M24 Chaffee (USA)

    Round 1, Group 3: AMX-13 (France) vs M24 Chaffee (USA)


    The French AMX-13 is unconventional, with its autoloader and ‘oscillating’ turret but it has seen very considerable service and was an export success. It is fast, as well as being heavily armed especially for a tank weighing in at 15 metric tons. It can carry an effective high-veloctiy main gun of up to 105mm, which is quite remarkable. Of course, there are some trade-offs for this but it is nevertheless noteworthy. A number of countries are still using the AMX-13 in one form or another.

    The American M24 Chaffee is equally remarkable, if not more so, in its own more conventional way. Arriving in time to see a fair bit of service during the closing stage of WW2, many would insist that the Chaffee was the finest light tank to emerge from that conflict. It has had a very respectable post-war career and served in a good number of armies. One of the photos below shows Norwegian M24s in NATO service as recently as the early 1990’s and it still serves in a few countries.

    Two very impressive light tanks here.
    For significance and influence, which one impresses you the most?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!

    Which of them is the most significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #35 - AMX-13 (France)

    Service Entry – 1953/54
    Weight – 15 metric tons
    Top Speed – 60 km/h (37 mph)
    Main Armament – 75mm, 90mm or 105mm gun
    No. Produced – 7,700

    For further info, check this wiki entry:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX-13











    Candidate #45 - M24 Chaffee (USA)

    Service Entry – 1944/45
    Weight – 18 tons
    Top Speed – 56 km/h (35 mph)
    Main Armament – 75mm gun
    No. Produced – 4,731

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Chaffee












    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!


    87
    AMX-13 (France)
    37.93%
    33
    M24 Chaffee (USA)
    62.07%
    54

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 05 Jul 14, 22:55.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    The AMX-13 has a better main gun. Both had variants active into the 90's.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      I'm going with the Chaffee. It saw more action IMO.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #4
        While I love the aesthetics and the uniqueness of the AMX design, I believe the Chaffee was the better light tank between the two.
        BoRG
        "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

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        • #5
          The Chaffee, not because it was better per se, but its design seems to have been more influential. Where the "oscillating" turrets now ?
          "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
          Samuel Johnson.

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          • #6
            I would agree Belgrave. While I might personally choose an AMX over a Chaffee for a mount if I was given the option between the two, for 'influence', the Chaffee can be related to other light tank projects taken up by the West and the US over the ensuing decades. Unfortunately the oscillating turret was a dead end for a production vehicle.....the AMX is the only success of its lineage.
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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            • #7
              Oscillating turrets are difficult to seal against NBC threats and as such its use on the post war European battlefield would have been ,ahem,problematic.
              It didn't actually influence anything at all but it did demonstrate an amazing ability to fit giant guns onto tiny chassis,perhaps it should have been classed a TD?
              However seeing as the main role of a light tank is to scout out the enemy and not to engage unless forced to,the Chaffee was quite suffice,and very quiet too.
              Quiteness is really of the utmost importance in a recce tank,the British CVRT series could actually sneak up behind a talking bloke on the tank park!

              M24.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                I'm going with the Chaffee. It saw more action IMO.
                AMX-13 saw considerably more time in action, over a longer time-span, than M24.

                M24 represented a pinnacle of WW2 light tank design, but design-wise it was a dead-end. AMX-13 introduced a new concept with new features that have influenced many vehicles.
                It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                Косово је Србија!
                Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                Armored Brigade

                Armored Brigade Facebook page

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                • #9
                  Chafee: Oscillating turrets were an evolutionary dead end in tank design.
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Israel did a great job with the Amx,if i'm correct.
                    His gun is a lethal weapon.
                    Amx for me.
                    That rug really tied the room together

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What influence did the M24 have on later light tanks, exactly? The 5-man crew with assistant driver and hull machine gun was abandoned by the US in its next light tank, the twin commercial engines were replaced by a specialized powerplant, stabilization and wet ammunition stowage were dropped. The drive layout of American's next light tank was revised with the transmission and drive sprockets at the rear. Beyond coincidental superficialities like a torsion bar suspension, there doesn't seem to be much in common between the M24 and M41.

                      Oscillating turrets may have all but disappeared from modern tanks, but in the 1950s and '60s they were furiously experimented on. The US had many experimental tank designs that were topped by oscillating turrets, and some even made it to prototype stage. The AMX-13 may in fact have influenced experimentation moreso than the M24...

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                      • #12
                        The French took the long 75mm cannon out of the Panther and built them for the AMX-13. There were a number of oscillating turrets built. I remember models with the 90mm and 105mm cannon. Was it Egypt that put a oscillating turret on some of their Shermans? The Israelis used the AMX in Tank battalions in the 50's then moved them into their Recon Battalions.

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                          The French took the long 75mm cannon out of the Panther and built them for the AMX-13.
                          Most likely a myth. Only thing they shared was caliber and general concept of high-muzzle velocity gun.
                          Gun design was different, as well the dimensions of the round used.

                          Another common misconception was that auto-loader* could be only reloaded from outside of the vehicle. In reality it was a preferred method because it was much faster, but it was possible to reload it from inside.

                          * it was actually a semi-automatic loader for good part of this tank service, and in later models it was upgraded to fully automatic.

                          There were a number of oscillating turrets built. I remember models with the 90mm and 105mm cannon.
                          French AMX-13 were upgraded with 90mm gun during their service, and 105mm (not British L7, but different French design, also used in AMX-30) was designated for export, and for example Netherlands and Argentina adopted those.

                          Among various prototypes there was also 90mm, 100 mm, and 120 mm. Americans also experimented with 155mm since oscillating turret is lighter than conventional turret, so larger gun can be mounted for same weight and protection. (however oscillation turret is more vulnerable to non penetrating hits and jamming)

                          Was it Egypt that put a oscillating turret on some of their Shermans?
                          M4/FL10 was a French project made for Egypt. French also installed modified 105mm guns into Israeli Super-Shermans, albeit without oscillating turret.

                          The Israelis used the AMX in Tank battalions in the 50's then moved them into their Recon Battalions.
                          AMX-13 was primarily used by French as tank-destroyer and recon vehicle.
                          It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                          Косово је Србија!
                          Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                          Armored Brigade

                          Armored Brigade Facebook page

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
                            .....AMX-13 was primarily used by French as tank-destroyer and recon vehicle.
                            It saw quite a lot of action here, and did its job successfully. My vote goes to the AMX.
                            I am G.I. Jew

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                            • #15
                              Not sure either was that influential but I went with the AMX because it was different.
                              "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

                              --Hávamál

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