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  • #46
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    "If it comes down to it, then for the sake of reducing the numbers, I'd say we could always put 1 tank per nation, and then if there's open space put a second tank if they made two notable ones. ..."
    Thanks, that's another workable concept and I'll keep it in mind. If whittling down to 16 candidates in each bracket proves too difficult I might just use it as a fall-back method, at least for one or two of the brackets.


    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    " ... For instance the M60A3 is a great tank, but in the 1980+ generation it wasn't revolutionary or notable, it was more or less a bridge between the M60A1/A2 and the M1 series. "
    Agreed. On the other hand, it was the 'ultimate' standard M60 variant, with some significant improvements over the M60A1 and it had to carry a major share of the US MBT workload for (IIRC) at least the first decade of that time bracket (1980-89). Furthermore, I think the general type (M60A1/A3) was exported to a very significant number of countries in useful numbers and was employed as first-line equipment by some of those countries for quite a long time after 1989.

    If the M60x ends up being weeded out of Bracket 4, to allow us to get down to 16 candidates, fair enough but I reckon it deserves to be at least a starting nomination for this preliminary list.

    Thanks for the suggestions and support so far. +1.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      "That's okay. I'm just trying to keep it simple."
      Scott, you and I have disagreed from time to time and we probably shall do so again; but that's not really the important thing. What is important, IMO, is my understanding of you as being very sincere; a straight shooter and a person with genuine intentions who calls it as he sees it.

      I respect that.

      As a specialized point, you're also a very handy man to have around when it comes to anything about the Soviet/Russian stuff.


      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      "I would ditch the T-24 as neither successful nor numerous nor innovative. ... "
      Yeah, I was lukewarm about it at best to start with but that was when I was just kicking off with the list and didn't know how many I was going to end up with. It'll very likely be among the first to be culled.


      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      " ... I would also ditch the T-44, which was too late for the war, built in limited numbers and replaced almost immediately by the T-54. ... "
      Inclined to agree with this too. I suspect the T-44 would also be among the first to go.


      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      " ... Likewise, the M26 and M24 missed the war and didn't really see combat until Korea. ... "
      Well, neither missed WW2 totally but they did participate very late and in relatively small numbers; especially the M26 IIRC.

      As for Korea, the M26 was supplemented by its improved stable-mate, the M46 but I think you may be substantially correct to suggest that the significance of M26/46 is relatively low compared to many of the other types on the list.


      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      " ... There are a few light tanks I would nominate, but one that screams out is the M24 Chaffee, which was very widely exported and is probably still in service somewhere. ..."
      Doh!!! How could I have missed that one? Yes, consider the M24 Chaffee added to the list!


      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      " ... I would also add the Chinese Type 59 family, developed incrementally from the T-55 over thirty years. The Type 69 and 79 were quite sophisticated compared to their granddaddy."
      I did think of those, but my intention is to include them as derivatives of the T-54/55. So they would be counted as developments of that same basic type; in much the same way as the South African Olifant, for example, would be counted as a development of the Centurion.

      T-54/55 and Centurion. Two highly prime candidates that should both (IMO) without any shadow of doubt be on the starting line; and I'd be surprised if the Centurion at least - if not both of these types - did not make it to at least the quarter-finals (the final 8).

      We shall see.
      Last edited by panther3485; 09 Apr 14, 09:02.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        I hope that goes some way towards explaining it.
        Yep, fair enough. That way makes just as much sense as doing it strictly by date of introduction.

        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        Yeah, thanks I did know that but according to one of the reference books I've been working from there was also a very different looking Christie type designated M1921 and originally, I had included that Christie model in my list so I didn't want confusion between the two. After one of our recent exchanges I amended the Christie entry to start from the M1928 (as you will no doubt have noticed); so I could have gone back and changed the US "Medium A" to M1921 but it got lost in the rush.
        Indeed, the American naming convention often leaves much to be desired. Consider that--all at the same time--one could have a submachine gun M3 stowed inside a scout car M3 that was in the same unit as a 75 mm gun motor carriage M3, which was based on the half-track personnel carrier M3 and whose main gun fired the same ammunition as the 75 mm gun M3, which was found in the medium tank M3, which served right alongside the light tank M3.

        Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
        That's okay. I'm just trying to keep it simple.
        Sure. Nothing wrong with that.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
          Yep, fair enough. That way makes just as much sense as doing it strictly by date of introduction.

          Indeed, the American naming convention often leaves much to be desired. Consider that--all at the same time--one could have a submachine gun M3 stowed inside a scout car M3 that was in the same unit as a 75 mm gun motor carriage M3, which was based on the half-track personnel carrier M3 and whose main gun fired the same ammunition as the 75 mm gun M3, which was found in the medium tank M3, which served right alongside the light tank M3.
          :
          My head is still spinning
          you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

          CPO Mzinyati

          Comment


          • #50
            OK, as for weeding some vehicles out, here are some votes for the final lineup. Some tough decisions will have to be made to pare down some of the eras to 16 vehicles.

            A quick question about Merkava I: Marsh Gelbart notes that the first production Merkava was accepted in April 1979, and the first Merkava battalion "was declared fully operational in 1980." Would this bump the Merkava I into the 4th bracket along with its later versions?

            Bracket 1: 1916-1938 (Infancy and childhood of the tank - a new weapon shows some promise)

            Tank Mk I/II/III/IV Britain
            Medium Mk. A/B 'Whippet' Britain
            Vickers Medium Mk I/II Britain
            A1E1 Independent Britain
            Vickers 6-Ton Britain
            Infantry Tank Mk I Matilda 1 Britain
            LT-38/PzKpfw 38(t) Czechoslovakia/Germany
            Schneider CA-1 France
            Saint Chamond France
            Renault FT-17 France
            A7V Germany
            PzKpfw III Ausf. A-D Germany
            PzKpfw IV Ausf. A-B Germany
            BT-5/7 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-28 Medium Soviet Union/Russia
            Christie Mediums M1928-36 & T3 USA


            Bracket 2: 1939-1945 (Adolescence of the tank - rapid development and change)

            Cruiser Tank Mk VIII Cromwell Britain
            Infantry Tank Mk II Matilda 2 Britain
            Infantry Tank Mk III Valentine Britain
            Infantry Tank Mk IV Churchill Britain
            Char B1/B1-bis France
            Char Somua S-35 France
            PzKpfw 38(t) Germany
            PzKpfw III Ausf. E-N Germany
            PzKpfw IV Ausf. C-J Germany
            Panther Germany
            Tigers I & II Germany
            T-34 Soviet Union/Russia
            KV tanks Soviet Union/Russia
            IS-2 Soviet Union/Russia
            Medium Tank M3 Lee/Grant USA
            Mediium Tank M4 Sherman USA

            Bracket 3: 1946-1979 (Young adulthood - distillation and crystallization of concepts)

            Centurion Britain
            Chieftain Britain
            AMX-30 France
            AMX-13 France
            Leopard I Germany (W)
            Merkava I Israel
            IS-3 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-34-85 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-54/T-55 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-64 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-72 Soviet Union/Russia
            Strv 103 Sweden
            M47 USA
            M48 USA
            M60/M60A1 USA


            Bracket 4: 1980 on (Maturity - the era of the MBT)
            Challenger I/II Britain
            Type 90-II China
            Type 98 China
            Leclerc France
            Leopard II Germany
            Merkava II/III/IV Israel
            C1 Ariete Italy
            Type 90 Japan
            Type 88 K1/K1A1 South Korea
            T-55 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-64 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-72 Soviet Union/Russia
            T-80 Soviet Union/Russia
            M1/M1A1/M1A2 Abrams USA
            M60A1/A3 USA

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
              OK, as for weeding some vehicles out, here are some votes for the final lineup. Some tough decisions will have to be made to pare down some of the eras to 16 vehicles.
              Yes indeed, I was struggling a bit with some of the decisions I know will have to be made. I've been slowly and steadily going through the line-up again and re-assessing each candidate; I would guess that's probably much the same process as you've gone through to produce your suggestions for the final 64 but you were quicker.

              In the meantime, I had also made some adjustments to the original list based on suggestions received from members up to this point, so what I've got right now is a bit different anyway.


              Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
              "A quick question about Merkava I: Marsh Gelbart notes that the first production Merkava was accepted in April 1979, and the first Merkava battalion "was declared fully operational in 1980." Would this bump the Merkava I into the 4th bracket along with its later versions?
              Based on the general principle we've already mentioned, yes it would but I hadn't gotten around to it yet. (Slow old me. ) In a similar vein, I've more or less made up my mind to drop the PzKpfw III and PzKpfw IV from the 16-38 Bracket as their numbers were minimal there and they didn't really influence anything much until the next bracket where both appeared in vastly more substantial numbers and were indeed of considerable importance.

              I'm also thinking about representing the LT-38 (including TNH/LTP etc - same basic design) as essentially Czechoslovak for the period rather than German, mainly on account of its wide export success albeit for only a very few years before the Germans took over production.
              For now at least (maybe it'll still end up getting chopped), LT-35/PzKpfw 35(t) can stay there. With this minor re-shuffle we might or might not decide to keep it. ... but the axe is still poised.


              Originally posted by DogDodger View Post

              Bracket 1: 1916-1938 (Infancy and childhood of the tank - a new weapon shows some promise)

              Tank Mk I/II/III/IV Britain
              Medium Mk. A/B 'Whippet' Britain
              Vickers Medium Mk I/II Britain
              A1E1 Independent Britain
              Vickers 6-Ton Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk I Matilda 1 Britain
              LT-38/PzKpfw 38(t) Czechoslovakia/Germany
              Schneider CA-1 France
              Saint Chamond France
              Renault FT-17 France
              A7V Germany
              PzKpfw III Ausf. A-D Germany
              PzKpfw IV Ausf. A-B Germany
              BT-5/7 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-28 Medium Soviet Union/Russia
              Christie Mediums M1928-36 & T3 USA


              Bracket 2: 1939-1945 (Adolescence of the tank - rapid development and change)

              Cruiser Tank Mk VIII Cromwell Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk II Matilda 2 Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk III Valentine Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk IV Churchill Britain
              Char B1/B1-bis France
              Char Somua S-35 France
              PzKpfw 38(t) Germany
              PzKpfw III Ausf. E-N Germany
              PzKpfw IV Ausf. C-J Germany
              Panther Germany
              Tigers I & II Germany
              T-34 Soviet Union/Russia
              KV tanks Soviet Union/Russia
              IS-2 Soviet Union/Russia
              Medium Tank M3 Lee/Grant USA
              Mediium Tank M4 Sherman USA

              Bracket 3: 1946-1979 (Young adulthood - distillation and crystallization of concepts)

              Centurion Britain
              Chieftain Britain
              AMX-30 France
              AMX-13 France
              Leopard I Germany (W)
              Merkava I Israel
              IS-3 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-34-85 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-54/T-55 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-64 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-72 Soviet Union/Russia
              Strv 103 Sweden
              M47 USA
              M48 USA
              M60/M60A1 USA


              Bracket 4: 1980 on (Maturity - the era of the MBT)
              Challenger I/II Britain
              Type 90-II China
              Type 98 China
              Leclerc France
              Leopard II Germany
              Merkava II/III/IV Israel
              C1 Ariete Italy
              Type 90 Japan
              Type 88 K1/K1A1 South Korea
              T-55 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-64 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-72 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-80 Soviet Union/Russia
              M1/M1A1/M1A2 Abrams USA
              M60A1/A3 USA
              Chris, that's great work.


              Before doing any further work of my own I've highlighted those in green on my spreadsheet; as well as highlighting the ones you've dropped (and that I had not already dropped myself) in pink. A modicum of further adjustment has also been made here and there, to accommodate some amendments I had made while you were doing this.

              Overall, there are a few differences between us; some occurring as a result of changes I made while you were working on the list yourself and one or two we might need to talk about but most of your choices are in accord with ones I would have been making myself. So I think we are on much the same wavelength with this.

              As soon as I can, I'll post my amended list & comments, and if you like we can compare & discuss further.


              EDIT

              OK, on the foundation of your work and with a few variations here and there, this is the amended list I think we should go with (candidates on my list that were absent from yours are in this colour):


              Bracket 1: 1916-1938 (Infancy and childhood of the tank - a new weapon shows some promise)

              Tanks Mk I-V (rhomboidal) Britain
              Medium Mk. A/B 'Whippet' Britain
              Vickers Medium Mk I/II Britain
              A1E1 Independent Britain
              Vickers 6-Ton Britain
              LT-35/PzKpfw 35(t) Czechoslovakia/Germany
              TNH/LTP/LT-38/PzKpfw 38(t) Czechoslovakia/Germany
              Schneider CA-1 France
              Saint Chamond France
              Renault FT-17 France
              Char 2C France
              A7V Germany
              Medium Tank Type 89A/B Japan
              BT-5/7 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-28 Medium Soviet Union/Russia
              Christie Mediums M1928-36 & T3 USA


              Bracket 2: 1939-1945 (Adolescence of the tank - rapid development and change)

              Cruiser Tanks Cromwell/Comet Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk II Matilda 2 Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk III Valentine Britain
              Infantry Tank Mk IV Churchill Britain
              Char B1/B1-bis France
              Char Somua S-35 France
              PzKpfw 38(t) Germany
              PzKpfw III Germany
              PzKpfw IV Germany
              Panther Germany
              Tigers I & II Germany
              T-34 Soviet Union/Russia
              KV tanks Soviet Union/Russia
              IS-2 Soviet Union/Russia
              Medium Tank M3 Lee/Grant USA
              Mediium Tank M4 Sherman USA


              Bracket 3: 1946-1979 (Young adulthood - distillation and crystallization of concepts)

              Centurion Britain
              Chieftain Britain
              AMX-30 France
              AMX-13 France
              Leopard I Germany (W)
              IS-3 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-34-85 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-54/T-55 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-64/64A Soviet Union/Russia
              T-72 Soviet Union/Russia
              Strv 103 Sweden
              M24 Chaffee USA
              M47 USA
              M48 USA
              M60/M60A1 USA


              Bracket 4: 1980 on (Maturity - the era of the MBT)

              Challenger I/II Britain
              Type 96 China
              Type 98/99 China
              Leclerc France
              Leopard II Germany
              Merkava I/II/III/IV Israel
              C1 Ariete Italy
              Type 90 Japan
              Type 88 K1/K1A1 South Korea
              T-55 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-62 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-64A Soviet Union/Russia
              T-72/T-90 Soviet Union/Russia
              T-80/B/U/UD Soviet Union/Russia
              M1/M1A1/M1A2 Abrams USA
              M60A1/A3 USA


              Last edited by panther3485; 11 Apr 14, 12:32.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

              Comment


              • #52
                I was just wondering,

                Should Soviet-made T-26 also be included ? Or it kinda goes under Vickers 6-ton ?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  Based on the general principle we've already mentioned, yes it would but I hadn't gotten around to it yet. (Slow old me. ) In a similar vein, I've more or less made up my mind to drop the PzKpfw III and PzKpfw IV from the 16-38 Bracket as their numbers were minimal there and they didn't really influence anything much until the next bracket where both appeared in vastly more substantial numbers and were indeed of considerable importance.

                  I'm also thinking about representing the LT-38 (including TNH/LTP etc - same basic design) as essentially Czechoslovak for the period rather than German, mainly on account of its wide export success albeit for only a very few years before the Germans took over production.
                  For now at least (maybe it'll still end up getting chopped), LT-35/PzKpfw 35(t) can stay there. With this minor re-shuffle we might or might not decide to keep it. ... but the axe is still poised.
                  That all sounds good to me. If we're dropping the early versions of the Pz.Kpfw.III/IV (which is fine, I picked those really because of what they developed into), I'm fine with putting the LT vz.35 and Type 89 back in to replace them. I thought Matilda might be a better choice than Char 2C, though. It was the first infantry tank, was conceived of by Hugh Elles himself, and actually saw some combat. Speaking of which, Pz.Kpfw.II might be an interesting option since it formed a major part of the German forces in Poland, France, the desert, etc.

                  M24 is probably a worthy addition to the third group; it fought for a bit in Korea and Vietnam and against various monsters in Japan... Finally, upon further research, it seems that few (if any) Chinese Type 90s actually made it into service, so the Type 96 is probably a better choice.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Pointblank View Post
                    I was just wondering,

                    Should Soviet-made T-26 also be included ? Or it kinda goes under Vickers 6-ton ?
                    First up, Pointblank, a warm welcome to ACG. Hope you like it here and enjoy your participation.

                    Thanks for the enquiry, and it's a perfectly valid question.

                    The reason for my insistence on the Vickers 6-ton being a candidate here is the influence of that design and its very widespread use in numerous forms around the World in the late inter-war and WW2 periods.

                    So, yes, the T-26 and all other tanks derived directly and substantially from the Vickers 6-ton and were therefore obviously based very heavily upon it - such as the Polish 7TP to give another example - are included as part of the 'credit' of the Vickers 6-ton.

                    Much the same principle has been applied fairly consistently through this entire exercise. For example, a number of post-WW2 Chinese tank models that were arguably very important and built in large numbers but were essentially adaptations or incremental developments of the Soviet/Russian T-54/55 series, were weeded out from the list for similar reasons; their 'credit' going to the T-54/55.

                    If we did otherwise across the board we'd have to allow for so many foreign derivatives that we might need something like 128 slots; never mind 64.


                    Btw, a small point that some folks may not be aware of here: The original Vickers 6-ton actually weighed about 7 tons and IIRC it was the lightest version. But the name was kept.
                    Last edited by panther3485; 11 Apr 14, 21:58.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
                      That all sounds good to me. If we're dropping the early versions of the Pz.Kpfw.III/IV (which is fine, I picked those really because of what they developed into), I'm fine with putting the LT vz.35 and Type 89 back in to replace them. I thought Matilda might be a better choice than Char 2C, though. It was the first infantry tank, was conceived of by Hugh Elles himself, and actually saw some combat. Speaking of which, Pz.Kpfw.II might be an interesting option since it formed a major part of the German forces in Poland, France, the desert, etc.

                      M24 is probably a worthy addition to the third group; it fought for a bit in Korea and Vietnam and against various monsters in Japan... Finally, upon further research, it seems that few (if any) Chinese Type 90s actually made it into service, so the Type 96 is probably a better choice.
                      Thanks Chris.

                      I did hesitate somewhat over removal of Matilda I from the 1916-38 Bracket but this, from one of my reference books, is part of what swayed me (my bold for emphasis):
                      " ... the General Staff accepted the design and the first production order was placed in April 1937. The first models were delivered in 1938 and issued to 1st Army Tank Brigade who took them to France in 1939. ... "

                      Therefore, following the principle applied to some other tanks appearing very late in Bracket 1 - some of which were IMO considerably more significant than Matilda I - it was removed.

                      While Char 2C never saw any action, it was designed, built and produced much earlier and is considerably more representative of the Bracket 1 period. It also had some quite advanced features for its time and it was - unless I am much mistaken - the first multi-turret tank built beyond the prototype stage.

                      That still left Matilda I as a possible candidate for Bracket 2, 1939-45; but in this period it is up against much stiffer opposition and simply didn't make the cut.
                      Last edited by panther3485; 11 Apr 14, 22:18.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Indeed, it pays to research. Foss and McKenzie say that 37 Matilda Is had been delivered by 1 February 1939. Never mind.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                          Inclined to agree with this too. I suspect the T-44 would also be among the first to go.
                          I would keep it, mostly because it was an influential developmental model, and 1000 were built.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
                            Indeed, it pays to research. Foss and McKenzie say that 37 Matilda Is had been delivered by 1 February 1939. Never mind.
                            Are we doing a list for most retrograde design?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                              I would keep it, mostly because it was an influential developmental model, and 1000 were built.
                              That gives the T-44 a certain amount of credit but then, two questions:

                              (1) What other tanks with similar 'developmental' credit might we have left out, that would have to be re-considered for inclusion if we put the T-44 back in?

                              (2) If we put the T-44 back in, what is going to be moved out to make room for it? Remember, we only have 16 slots in each Bracket.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                                That gives the T-44 a certain amount of credit but then, two questions:

                                (1) What other tanks with similar 'developmental' credit might we have left out, that would have to be re-considered for inclusion if we put the T-44 back in?

                                (2) If we put the T-44 back in, what is going to be moved out to make room for it? Remember, we only have 16 slots in each Bracket.
                                Drop the Matilda II, the Pz-III. In fact, scrutinise each division's list to see if developmental vehicles have been overlooked. Too often "name brands" get the glory but the hard work went into something now forgotten, so if the aim is to find important models in the development of the modern tank, we need to identify which designs tested the ideas we now appreciate, not which designs got churned out because the government of the day needed a working mousetrap.

                                Comment

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