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Quarter-Final - Junkers Ju 88 (Germany) vs De Havilland Mosquito (Britain)

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
    Just like Jerry had the Me210 and 410, both contemporary, both not half as good. the He219 struggled and struggled but couldn't cut the mustard. And being better and with an excellent combat record was all the reason for the Germans to try to counter it with souped up fighters in special squadrons that came to nowt. Influence there alone methinks! And if it influences the enemy then its job done.

    Paul
    The Ju-88 was in service from the beginning to the end of the war. This is significant as few other bombers were. What the Germans couldn't do was magic high octane fuel out of nothing. The much modified version, the Ju-388 would have presented the RAF/VVS/USAAF quite a few problems if it had been made in significant numbers.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
      The Ju-88 was in service from the beginning to the end of the war. This is significant as few other bombers were. What the Germans couldn't do was magic high octane fuel out of nothing. The much modified version, the Ju-388 would have presented the RAF/VVS/USAAF quite a few problems if it had been made in significant numbers.
      So! The Mosquito was in service and still doing a bloody good job in the 1956 Israeli Arab war.

      And as for the Ju.388. Would'a could'a should'a counts for nothing. Did, done and had, are the words that count for everything.

      Jerry had GM-1'ed some of the 388's engines, but then again, The Mosquito used N2O too and the Mosquito NF.XXX would make short work of such a 'hybrid' and If we are going to the 'what-if' fantasy world, then the d.H Hornet would have made all the types of 388's (if 388's were true to their projected in-service specifications) having the same chance in combat as a Bf109.E4 up against a Mk XIV Spitfire.

      Paul
      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
      All human ills he can subdue,
      Or with a bauble or medal
      Can win mans heart for you;
      And many a blessing know to stew
      To make a megloamaniac bright;
      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
      The Pixie is a little shite.

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      • #63
        Its been really nice to read all five pages of various Brits defending their Wonderbird.

        And rightly so, too, as Paul so rightly points out.

        The JU-88 was a linchpin role aircraft, but everything a JU-88 could achieve, a Dehaviland Mosquito could probably have done more efficiently.

        Remember, the ** was a BOMBER pressed into service in other roles.

        The Mossie was a FIGHTERBOMBER, with interchangeable weapons that made its usefullness all the more apparent.

        I have already voted for the Dehaviland Wonderbird. To me, the 88 was a sluggish beast by comparison
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        • #64
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Put another way, without the Mosquito the Allies could still have managed to do all the air operations they did. Strategic bombing would still occur. Ground attack, night fighters, etc., would have still been there and doing the job.

          On the other hand, for the Germans the Ju 88 was an indispensable aircraft that had no real replacement.

          Sure, the Mosquito was good at what it did, even excellent at it. But, it wasn't "invaluable" or some panacea that if it ceased to exist would have made aerial warfare for the Allies tremendously more difficult.

          And, certainly post WW 2 it was still flying because Britain failed to replace it rather than because it didn't need replacing.
          Excellent post, and the reason I'm having a tough time choosing....
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          • #65
            Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
            So! The Mosquito was in service and still doing a bloody good job in the 1956 Israeli Arab war.

            And as for the Ju.388. Would'a could'a should'a counts for nothing. Did, done and had, are the words that count for everything.

            Jerry had GM-1'ed some of the 388's engines, but then again, The Mosquito used N2O too and the Mosquito NF.XXX would make short work of such a 'hybrid' and If we are going to the 'what-if' fantasy world, then the d.H Hornet would have made all the types of 388's (if 388's were true to their projected in-service specifications) having the same chance in combat as a Bf109.E4 up against a Mk XIV Spitfire.

            Paul
            If the Mossie was doing such a good job in 1956, why were the main aircraft of the IDF the Dassault Mystere IV-A and Ouragan?

            Yes the Mossie was a better aircraft, but it wasn't as influential nor as significant.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by broderickwells View Post

              Yes the Mossie was a better aircraft, but it wasn't as influential nor as significant.
              But it was significant as the pinnacle of WWII twin engined engineering. and It influeced the enemy into trying all in their means to counter it, including 'busted flush' designs that came to nowt and specialist squadrons with aircraft with lightened airframes and 'souped up' engines, which failed miserably. So if it influences the enemy to pour precious resources into countering the Mosquito, then there is no bigger influence than that. And as for significance. To have an airframe that does all that was asked of it and doing it superbly and have a combat history second to none, is much more significant than an overtaxed and lesser aircraft that is the Ju.88.

              If the Mossie was doing such a good job in 1956, why were the main aircraft of the IDF the Dassault Mystere IV-A and Ouragan
              The Mosquito at the point of it doing missions in 1956 was at the end of its operational life, even then it was still doing the business.

              Even in the PR version, after the end of the war was still a capable aircraft.

              .....Where was the Ju.88 or even its bastardised version at this point of the jet age?


              Paul
              Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 16 Mar 16, 21:52.
              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
              All human ills he can subdue,
              Or with a bauble or medal
              Can win mans heart for you;
              And many a blessing know to stew
              To make a megloamaniac bright;
              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
              The Pixie is a little shite.

              Comment


              • #67


                Tintin says Mosquitoes for me.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                  But it was significant as the pinnacle of WWII twin engined engineering. and It influeced the enemy into trying all in their means to counter it, including 'busted flush' designs that came to nowt and specialist squadrons with aircraft with lightened airframes and 'souped up' engines, which failed miserably. So if it influences the enemy to pour precious resources into countering the Mosquito, then there is no bigger influence than that. and as for significance. To have an airframe that does all that was asked of it and doing it superbly and have a combat history second to none, is much more significant than an overtaxed and lesser aircraft that is the Ju.88.
                  I wouldn't even call it "the pinnacle of WW II twin engine engineering." It was a good twin design, but others equaled or exceeded it in terms of design and technology.
                  The Germans hardly tried "all in their means to counter it" either. They did go so far as to produce a small number of specialized variants of existing aircraft specifically to counter the Mosquito but they also put far more resources into trying counter Allied aircraft, particularly bombers, in general.
                  As I've previously pointed out, the Ju 88 in several production variants was as fast as a Mosquito, but that hardly makes it a plane that could easily bring one down given the need for a tail chase at night.
                  There were never any complete Luftwaffe squadrons devoted to countering Mosquitos by the way.

                  The Mosquito at the point of it doing missions in 1956 was at the end of its operational life, even then it was still doing the business.

                  Even in the PR version, after the end of the war was still a capable aircraft.

                  .....Where was the Ju.88 or even its bastardised version at this point of the jet age?


                  Paul
                  The Mosquito by 1956 was still flying in small numbers because the air forces using it either had little alternative or because they were penny pinching their budgets. The Mosquito would hardly have been competitive in Korea. The Israelis were mentioned using it. At the time, they were using whatever they could get their hands on. They bought a bunch of Avia 199 "Mules" for example:



                  As bad as this plane was, it was better than nothing for a fledgling air force in a country under attack.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    [.....]
                    There were never any complete Luftwaffe squadrons devoted to countering Mosquitos by the way.
                    [.....]
                    From Adolf Galland's Book "The First and the Last" (pages 213 and 214):

                    A special chapter was the fight against the Mosquito, Britain had developed and all purpose aircraft woth so extra ordinary performance, whose activities over Germany caused a lot of trouble. The twin engined De Havilland had a speed which none of our fighter aircraft could approach. By day it flew on reconnaissance at high altitude, but it also performed bombing missions, and had a very precise bombsight called Oboe (which was actually a radio based navigation system). It was also successful, at little cost, in nuisance raids at night.

                    Until we were able to send up the Me-262 jet fighter we were practically powerless against the Mosquito.

                    Like their namesake they became a plague to our Command and the population.

                    Our fighters could only catch them when we dived on them from a much greater height during an attack, temporarily achieving higher speed. But as the Mosquitos already flew at a great height, the manoeuvre could only be performed when the approach of the aircraft was discovered early enough and if it could be passed from one radar station to another.
                    Here there were difficulties: firstly our radar network by by no means without gaps and, secondly, the Mosquito was built of wood, so the little 'bird' only gave a faint signal on our sets.

                    These were the facts which one simply had to accept for the time being.

                    Anyhow, with this aircraft alone the German war industry could not be hit decisively; there was no danger that we might lose the war on account of the Mosquito.
                    It was for quite different reasons the Goering went mad about out inability to stop these raids.
                    In daytime they flew without loss and went wherever their mission took them; at night they chased the population out of their beds. The latter, who were justifiably annoyed at this, started to grumble: 'Fatty can't even cope with a few silly Mosquitos.'

                    Ignoring me, Goering recalled two experienced group leaders from the East and ordered them to clear up this daily nuisance in one way or another.

                    Two strengthened squadrons were formed specially for this purpose, bombastically called the 25th and 50th fighter groups. These aircraft were 'hotted' up by all sorts of tricks, and special methods of attack were worked out - without avail.

                    As far as I know, neither of these units ever shot down a Mosquito. They were dissolved in autumn 43, and I was able to use the aircraft in the general defence of the Reich.
                    Adolf Galland, General der Jagdflieger

                    Galland's book was written before more complete research allowed a small measure of fine tuning of what was said in the last sentence.

                    [.....]
                    On 1 July 1943, Jagdgruppe Nord des ObdL was formed as a high-altitude fighter unit to combat the RAF's Mosquito twin-engine bomber and reconnaissance aircraft. On 15 August 1943 the unit was redesignated Jagdgeschwader 25 and was commanded by Oberstleutnant Herbert Ihlefeld. Both JG 25 (and its sister unit Jagdgeschwader 50) were ultimately unsuccessful in effectively countering the Mosquito
                    [.....]
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_25

                    [.....]
                    On 21 July 1943, Jagdgruppe Süd der ObdL was formed as a high-altitude fighter unit to combat the RAF's Mosquito twin-engine bomber and reconnaissance aircraft. On 15 August 1943 the unit was redesignated Jagdgeschwader 50 and was commanded by Major Hermann Graf, the first pilot in history to achieve 200 aerial victories. Both JG 50 (and its sister unit Jagdgeschwader 25) were ultimately unsuccessful in effectively countering the Mosquito and were more successfully used for interception of the US heavy bomber formations during the daylight offensive over Europe in 1943-44. Only one Mosquito was taken down, and even that is subject to dispute.[1]
                    [.....]
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_50

                    Source for the attachment:

                    http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.com...1_archive.html
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by At ease; 16 Mar 16, 23:08.
                    "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
                    "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

                    "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
                    — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                      The Ju-88 was in service from the beginning to the end of the war. This is significant as few other bombers were. What the Germans couldn't do was magic high octane fuel out of nothing. The much modified version, the Ju-388 would have presented the RAF/VVS/USAAF quite a few problems if it had been made in significant numbers.
                      Agreed, it served effectively the entire war which by nature of longevity gives it an edge. The Mosquito was clearly the better aircraft by 1943, but the war was more or less decided. So how much influence was there to make on an enemy on the run with limited resources?
                      "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
                      -Omar Bradley
                      "Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
                      -Anonymous US Army logistician

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                      • #71
                        The Mosquito is a great plane one of my favorites.

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                        • #72
                          I had bigger fish to fry elsewhere, but now I will get back to this rater interesting subject.

                          Originally posted by Javaman View Post
                          Agreed, it served effectively the entire war which by nature of longevity gives it an edge. The Mosquito was clearly the better aircraft by 1943,
                          The Mosquito was clearly better when it was put in service from the outset (Late 1941 PR version) And being 'the best or better' is a great influence and significance all itself.

                          but the war was more or less decided. So how much influence was there to make on an enemy on the run with limited resources?
                          The influence was in the pouring of scarce or 'limited' resources into designing counters to the Mosquito, which failed miserably and dedicating units to try and beat it, which failed.

                          The Me262 'though the greatest threat, struggled to counter the Mosquito. Even good old Kurt Welter's 33 Mosquito claims have been largely debunked by official RAF records.

                          As for you T.A.G. I suggest you do some in-depth research, as what you are posting is not very accurate. Try sourced info instead of what is found on some 'lesser' forums.

                          I will reserve my next comments for the next round.

                          Paul
                          ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                          All human ills he can subdue,
                          Or with a bauble or medal
                          Can win mans heart for you;
                          And many a blessing know to stew
                          To make a megloamaniac bright;
                          Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                          The Pixie is a little shite.

                          Comment

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