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  • Would you like a modified "wild card" idea?

    Hi guys,

    An interesting idea was put to me by Chris Jensen (Drusus Nero), to introduce a “wild card” factor into campaigns/tournaments.
    Here is his suggestion, post #58 in the F-15 vs F/A-18 match thread, Round 3:

    Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
    Maybe, Panther, we could have, for the next tourney/battle, a WILD card, available by direct request. People who leave a comment can also vote for a wild card draw.

    It would seem the losing plane from this match would definately qualify in my view for just that kind of vote.

    Wild cards will not only solve dead heats, but will give those posters that feel their aircraft was eliminated too early a bulls roar of a chance should the situation come about.

    anyway, just a thought.
    I’ve been giving this quite a bit of thought over the last day or so. I’m not saying I’d necessarily favour the idea but IF something like this was to be implemented in one of my tournaments I’d like it to be on the following basis:

    (1) To be eligible as a “wild card” in any Round a candidate MUST be among those that had lost by the narrowest of margins in the Round immediately preceding. I am currently proposing to set the margin at 10% maximum. For example, if Aircraft X gets 50 votes and Aircraft Y gets 45, then Aircraft Y has just scraped in to qualify as a potential “wild card” for the next Round. Therefore, “wild card” status is not something to be directly nominated as such from the membership. However, members can still have input on the choice if the number of eligible candidates exceeds the number of available “wild card” slots (see item 2 below).

    (2) There would be a limit on the number of “wild cards” slots allowed. It would be no more than one per group or one for every four matches, whichever is the lesser. However (and this is where member input can come into play) if there are more eligible candidates than slots available, then a mini-poll or polls would be held to decide which candidates are in and which are out.

    (3) If there are no polling margins of 10% or less in a round, then there will be no “wild cards” coming out of that Round.

    (4) If this idea is implemented, wild card candidates would be fitted in as a “third option” in one of the matches considered suitable or appropriate; at the discretion of the tournament author/s. In any case, a "wild card" candidate should not be pitted against its former opponent from the previous round.

    (5) “Wild card” slots can be made available only starting in Round 2 and thru to the Quarter-Final. Obviously, there can be none in the opening Round and strictly NONE would be allowed in the Semi-Final or the Final.

    (6) No candidate could become a “wild card” more than once in any tournament.

    (7) The final decision as to whether or not "wild cards" should be allowed in any campaign/tournament is always at the discretion of the author/s. The idea is therefore not by any means "locked in" for future polls regardless of the voting outcome here. It may be considered by poll authors in this and all future cases.


    Yes, I know what I’ve outlined above isn’t the same as the wild card concept as per a game of cards; but we can nevertheless retain the term for our use if that’s what the members would like?

    So, what do you think? Voting in the attached poll is invited from all members who have participated in any of the following three tournaments:

    • Most Significant/Influential Tank
    • Most Significant/Influential Fighter Plane
    • Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft

    Poll options:
    • Yes, I think it’s a great idea. Please implement ASAP.
    • Yes, I think it’s a good idea but don’t start until the next tournament.
    • Not sure, I’ll need more time to think about it.
    • No; I can see some merit but it would complicate things too much.
    • No, definitely not in this format. (please explain in thread)
    • No way, I strongly oppose this idea or anything like it.
    • Other (please explain in thread)


    Best to all,
    panther3485
    30
    Yes, I think it's a great idea. Please implement ASAP.
    10.00%
    3
    Yes, I think it's a good idea but don't start until the next tournament.
    23.33%
    7
    Not sure, I'll need more time to think about it.
    20.00%
    6
    No; I can see some merit but it would complicate things too much.
    30.00%
    9
    No, definitely not in this format. (Please explain in thread)
    3.33%
    1
    No way, I strongly oppose this idea or anything like it.
    10.00%
    3
    Other (Please explain in thread)
    3.33%
    1

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 20 Feb 16, 01:25.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Not sure how this works in that the number of aircraft going into succeeding rounds would be odd or am misunderstanding?
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
      Not sure how this works in that the number of aircraft going into succeeding rounds would be odd or am misunderstanding?
      Yes; sort of.

      If adopted, it means that from Round 2 through to the Quarter-Final we could have a few matches here and there with three aircraft, rather than just the usual pair. Regardless, only one aircraft from each match - whether it contained 2 candidates or 3 - could win so we'd still finish up with an even number of winners.

      Even with the proviso that a "wild card" candidate is not allowed to be matched against its previous opponent, I can foresee the possibility that some members might not be altogether happy with the voting for two candidates being potentially diluted by a third that was defeated in the preceding round.

      For this reason alone, I hesitate over the idea and it's why I want to get some sort of gauge for what the membership think of it. If it's not favoured by a significant majority of the members (say about 2/3 at least) I would not consider adopting it anyway.

      The only other way I could see a "wild card" candidate being integrated into a paired elimination tournament such as this would be if it could somehow become substituted for a winning candidate from that same round and this is something I certainly could not bring myself to support under any condition.
      Last edited by panther3485; 20 Feb 16, 04:49.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

      Comment


      • #4
        Baaaad idea. The result from a three plane draw could be very different from a 2 plane one, especially if two are very closely matched. You could get a situation where the two aircraft that the majority agree are the best losing to number three because they split the vote. What's next 2nd preference votes?
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
          Baaaad idea. The result from a three plane draw could be very different from a 2 plane one, especially if two are very closely matched. You could get a situation where the two aircraft that the majority agree are the best losing to number three because they split the vote. What's next 2nd preference votes?
          If two aircraft out of three are agreed to be the best by the majority (and from this I assume you mean, that neither of them is the "wild card" plane and both get the same number of votes), then the votes given to the "wild card" plane would not be split between them.
          The contest would simply be considered a draw between the two that got the higher scores and that draw would be resolved using one of the options that have already been used to resolve draws in these tournaments.

          If, on the other hand, all three aircraft get the same number of votes (say, 33 votes each), then the "wild card" aircraft is dropped and it's treated as a simple draw between the remaining two, resolved as above.

          If there is a draw between two aircraft and one of them is the "wild card", the other is declared the winner.

          For the "wild card" aircraft to win, it has to get more votes than either of the other two planes. I neglected to say that in my initial explanation but I did think of it already. It would not be allowed to either win a draw or influence a draw in the final reckoning.

          Having said all this, I am still uncertain; mainly on grounds of dilution of the votes between a regular pair; and have voted accordingly in the attached poll.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
            If two aircraft out of three are agreed to be the best by the majority (and from this I assume you mean, that neither of them is the "wild card" plane and both get the same number of votes), then the votes given to the "wild card" plane would not be split between them.
            The contest would simply be considered a draw between the two that got the higher scores and that draw would be resolved using one of the options that have already been used to resolve draws in these tournaments.

            If, on the other hand, all three aircraft get the same number of votes (say, 33 votes each), then the "wild card" aircraft is dropped and it's treated as a simple draw between the remaining two, resolved as above.

            If there is a draw between two aircraft and one of them is the "wild card", the other is declared the winner.

            For the "wild card" aircraft to win, it has to get more votes than either of the other two planes. I neglected to say that in my initial explanation but I did think of it already. It would not be allowed to either win a draw or influence a draw in the final reckoning.

            Having said all this, I am still uncertain; mainly on grounds of dilution of the votes between a regular pair; and have voted accordingly in the attached poll.
            Not what I meant Consider this imaginary example

            Three aircraft in a draw (one is a wild card)

            Gruber Pterodactyl
            McAllister Auk
            Douggie Dodo

            The Gruber and the McAllister are both previous round winners and are very closely matched so that people have difficulty deciding between them but most think one or the other should win this round so the vote gets split Gruber 26, McAllister 25. The Douggie gets a sentimental vote of 27 and wins even though it lost the previous round and the majority do not consider it the best in this heat.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post
              Not what I meant Consider this imaginary example

              Three aircraft in a draw (one is a wild card)

              Gruber Pterodactyl
              McAllister Auk
              Douggie Dodo

              The Gruber and the McAllister are both previous round winners and are very closely matched so that people have difficulty deciding between them but most think one or the other should win this round so the vote gets split Gruber 26, McAllister 25. The Douggie gets a sentimental vote of 27 and wins even though it lost the previous round and the majority do not consider it the best in this heat.
              OK, now I understand what you meant.

              The underlying factor here is fundamentally the same as my concern; i.e. that the wild card aircraft dilutes the poll by "robbing" votes that would otherwise have gone to the other two aircraft. In the case you have illustrated it takes my concern to its ultimate consequence; that is, it will become a winner in the subsequent round without necessarily deserving its win as such.

              So, we are more or less in agreement in that sense, I think.

              I have taken an essentially neutral position in this so that the members - at least, those who wish to vote here - can make a decision.
              However, as previously indicated I'll be looking for more than a simple majority to even consider adopting it.
              A 2/3 majority "yes" vote (combining the two yes options) is the least it would take and even then I won't begin to pay attention unless at least 60 eligible members vote on it; which I would see as the minimum required for a quorum given the usual number participating in these tournaments.
              Last edited by panther3485; 20 Feb 16, 06:48.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the wild card should only be awarded to any contestant that the organisers accidentally omitted. How to fit any wild card in after the first round is the nightmare.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                  I think the wild card should only be awarded to any contestant that the organisers accidentally omitted. How to fit any wild card in after the first round is the nightmare.
                  +1.

                  IMO yours is a good idea but I also share your thoughts about the difficulty of doing it.

                  If I had been able to think of a way that didn't cause too much of a headache, I would have fitted in the Avro 504 and the B-29 already, for a start.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. A military motto that should be enshrined.

                    Not all of us are rocket scientists and deviation could be the end of us all...

                    Spoken as a former member of SAC...
                    Credo quia absurdum.


                    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I agree with Bwaha that you need to keep it simple. If a plane/ship/tank loses a round it's not likely it will win the campaign if you give it a second chance.
                      “When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.”
                      ― Groucho Marx

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Checkertail20 View Post
                        I agree with Bwaha that you need to keep it simple. If a plane/ship/tank loses a round it's not likely it will win the campaign if you give it a second chance.
                        Inclined to agree with you both.

                        Brod's idea was the best IMO - that is, if we could somehow introduce a candidate that arguably should have been included but was missed, like the Avro 504 or the B-29. However, unless I can think of a way of doing it that wouldn't cause too many complications it ain't gonna happen.

                        My whole reason behind putting this idea up was to give it a fair airing among the members. Who knows, somebody might come up with another idea that could work without too much complication between now and the next campaign? Regardless, at the end of the day it should be up to whoever is running the comp anyway, if you ask me.

                        In the meantime, KISS is the way to go I reckon.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the best you could do is have a 2nd poll for the 'missed' aircraft and the closest runners up from round 1 - bit like the Europa League. You could even do a head to head with the winners of both polls.
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                            I think the best you could do is have a 2nd poll for the 'missed' aircraft and the closest runners up from round 1 - bit like the Europa League. You could even do a head to head with the winners of both polls.
                            This pretty much is my idea. I do not follow football but remember indignation when a "Wild Card" team won the gong.

                            But, I will go along with the majority. Just not this time

                            Susie
                            Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                            Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                            For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                            And battles long ago:
                            -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am not saying this to criticize, but I think it would be really nice to have a fighter vs fighter, bomber vs bomber, transport vs transport.
                              I really enjoy the contest but it does get a little frustrating being forced to vote against a great bomber because it is compared to a great transport.
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                              Comment

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