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Rnd 2 Grp AB - Cant Z.506 Airone (Italy) vs Cons. PBY Catalina (USA; SU/Russia*)

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  • Rnd 2 Grp AB - Cant Z.506 Airone (Italy) vs Cons. PBY Catalina (USA; SU/Russia*)

    Round 2, Group AB:

    Cant Z.506 Airone (Italy)
    vs
    Consolidated PBY Catalina (USA; SU/Russia*)
    (*see below)




    Candidate #32 - Cant Z.506 Airone (Italy)

    Service Intro - 1937
    Roles - maritime patrol; torpedo bomber; convoy escort; anti-submarine; air-sea rescue
    Quantity Produced - 344
    User Nations - Italy, Germany, Spain

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.506









    Candidate #23 - Consolidated PBY Catalina (USA; SU/Russia*)
    (*SU/Russia inclusion based on estimated production only.
    Best currently available estimates range between 400 and 1,000 but some sources show around 150-200.)

    Service Intro - 1936
    Roles - maritime patrol; convoy escort; anti-submarine/naval interdiction; search & rescue; ELINT; transport/general purpose; airliner
    Quantity Produced - 3,305** (**but could be over 4,000 with Soviet production)
    User Nations - USA + at least 30 other countries

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_PBY_Catalina








    Will you vote for the Airone or the Catalina?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?


    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    80
    Cant Z.506 Airone (Italy)
    5.00%
    4
    Consolidated PBY Catalina (USA; SU/Russia)
    95.00%
    76

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 31 Jan 16, 09:31.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    No contest for a fanboy of the Cat.
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Much as I love Italian aircraft, to compare the Airone with the Catalina is no contest. Catalina forever

      Susie
      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
      And battles long ago:
      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

      Comment


      • #4
        Th PBY was efinately more numerous. Probably more influential, considering the soviet production facility. You should elevate the figures for production to over 4,000.

        I have mentioned this before.

        PBY.
        My Articles, ALMOST LIVE, exclusive to The Armchair!

        Soviet Submarines in WW2....The Mythology of Shiloh....(Edited) Both Sides of the Warsaw Ghetto
        GULAG Glossary....Who Really Killed The Red Baron?....Pearl Harbor At 75
        Lincoln-Douglas Debates

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        • #5
          Again very different aircraft primarily with different main missions. The Cant was a bomber on floats and the Cat a long range marine recce. They did have ASR in common.

          I think it was a Cant that got hijacked by an ungrateful RAF crew it picked up from the sea.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes Mark..it was a Cant. The aircrew were out from Malta. I have a nice written account of that action, if you are interested.

            A small detail from that story. The Italians were eating steak, a breakfast they shared with the Cant crew. The Brits joked that they should drop in for breakfast with the italians far more often, considering the meager and tasteless rations on offer back at the Fortress.

            That same Cant, when flown back to Malta, was used as a sea-rescue service for Malta itself, very sucessfully so; Malta, up to that point, had no aircraft available for that vital job.

            Thankyou Regia Aeronautica!
            My Articles, ALMOST LIVE, exclusive to The Armchair!

            Soviet Submarines in WW2....The Mythology of Shiloh....(Edited) Both Sides of the Warsaw Ghetto
            GULAG Glossary....Who Really Killed The Red Baron?....Pearl Harbor At 75
            Lincoln-Douglas Debates

            Comment


            • #7
              OMG....

              Better tie a broomstick to the Cat!
              My Articles, ALMOST LIVE, exclusive to The Armchair!

              Soviet Submarines in WW2....The Mythology of Shiloh....(Edited) Both Sides of the Warsaw Ghetto
              GULAG Glossary....Who Really Killed The Red Baron?....Pearl Harbor At 75
              Lincoln-Douglas Debates

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                Yes Mark..it was a Cant. The aircrew were out from Malta. I have a nice written account of that action, if you are interested.

                A small detail from that story. The Italians were eating steak, a breakfast they shared with the Cant crew. The Brits joked that they should drop in for breakfast with the italians far more often, considering the meager and tasteless rations on offer back at the Fortress.

                That same Cant, when flown back to Malta, was used as a sea-rescue service for Malta itself, very sucessfully so; Malta, up to that point, had no aircraft available for that vital job.

                Thankyou Regia Aeronautica!
                I've got an account in an old copy of RAF Flying review thanks - the problem is for space reasons all my old RAFFRs are stored in the loft over the garage which means going out in the cold rain, in the dark and then climbing up a ladder! So I couldn't check my memory
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                  Th PBY was efinately more numerous. Probably more influential, considering the soviet production facility. You should elevate the figures for production to over 4,000.

                  I have mentioned this before.

                  PBY.
                  See LTV A-7 Corsair II vs MD/Boeing F-15 Eagle, for something I've mentioned before.
                  ... or, have you been hitting the turps?

                  ... but I'll check out Soviet production anyway.

                  EDIT: Just checked it out and now I've found it, I remember stumbling across this during my earlier research.
                  There is a good reason I didn't bother to mention Soviet production.
                  Apparently, some sources give exaggerated production numbers for the Soviet version, designated GST but relatively speaking even the exaggerated figure lacks any real significance:
                  " ... The GST (the Soviet designation for Soviet build Catalinas) was not exactly the same as the three Model 28-2's the Soviets bought. First of all, the engine cowling front was different. It was possible to open or close it, probably for cold weather operations. The cowlings enclosed M-87 engines and not M-62 engines (which would have been license build Wright Cyclone R-1820-G3's). The M-87 was a 2-row, 14-cylinder, air cooled, radial engine, rated at 950 h.p. The third difference was the bow turret. The few photos released of the GST show that it looked quite different from the PBY turret.
                  The Soviets did not produce as many GST's as some sources state. Instead of the 150, only 27 were produced. ... "
                  http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...es/commandeur/

                  So, MINISCULE NUMBERS when set against the overall production in excess of 3,000 and not really worth bothering with for the purposes of this tournament.
                  Furthermore, according to wiki the number I gave in the OP already included the comparatively negligible amount of Soviet-built Catalinas!
                  Last edited by panther3485; 18 Jan 16, 02:47.
                  "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                  Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Cat wins on longevity if nothing else. Two fine aircraft!

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I wonder if any captured Axis aircraft were used by the S.O.E. and the O.S.S.?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
                        I wonder if any captured Axis aircraft were used by the S.O.E. and the O.S.S.?
                        Yes. Look at both the He 115 threads in this campaign for an example. Norwegian and captured German He 115s were used for clandestine work in Norway and the Mediterranean .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
                          I wonder if any captured Axis aircraft were used by the S.O.E. and the O.S.S.?
                          not the SOE or OSS but the SAS used a Fiesler Storch during Operation Tombola to retrieve men from behind the enemy lines in Northern Italy see The SAS at War.
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
                            I wonder if any captured Axis aircraft were used by the S.O.E. and the O.S.S.?
                            Amongst a number of aircraft (including DC 3s and B25s) used by I.S.9 (Central Mediterranean Force) part of M.I.9 to retrieve Allied POWs from behind enemy lines in Italy was a Fiesler Storch flown by an Italian pilot

                            See a history of I.S.9 (Intelligence School 9) from November 1, 1943 to May 31, 1945, written as an attachment to a memorandum to the Deputy Director of Military Intelligence (DDMI)
                            Last edited by MarkV; 22 Jan 16, 11:16.
                            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              (Sigh)
                              Permission for the new flying boat to be exported was granted to Consolidated in 1938, and 3 were immediately ordered by the USSR., where the type subsequently went into production as the GST.. Re-engined with M-62 radials, the GST was built in large numbers by the Soviet Union and served as standard equipment throughout the war.

                              Including Russian production of the GST, the grand total of Catalina variants built approached 4,000- believed to be the largest total for any flying boat design in the world.
                              "Combat Aircraft of the World" by John W.R. Taylor

                              I said I don't drink...and I don't!

                              Just from my own research into soviet submarines, the russians were very short of maritime patrol aircraft for naval co-operation. They liked the GST because the Red Army turned it's nose up at stealing them for Army service and use. The GST did not make for a great Army co-operation aircraft.
                              Given that they bothered to build an entire factory, (what other western aircraft can you say THAT about for the USSR, ) 150 examples over a five and a half year period sounds like dog poo to me.

                              The soviet Navy worshipped their GSTs almost as much as we did our Catalinas. And really, if a cowling and a turret are the only differences apart fron the engine itself, the GST was still very much a Catalina, but with an engine for soviet conditions.

                              You could have had a large workshop and built 27-150 GSTs in five and a half years. The soviets had a large factory floor, with a spare parts chain, and a decent training programme for their crews.

                              What other Aircraft from the west got such right royal treatment? With a factory at that?

                              NONE. My wife and I could build 27 aircraft a year with a few apprentices in our backyard
                              Last edited by Drusus Nero; 22 Jan 16, 11:44.
                              My Articles, ALMOST LIVE, exclusive to The Armchair!

                              Soviet Submarines in WW2....The Mythology of Shiloh....(Edited) Both Sides of the Warsaw Ghetto
                              GULAG Glossary....Who Really Killed The Red Baron?....Pearl Harbor At 75
                              Lincoln-Douglas Debates

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