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  • Questions, Comments and Concerns

    Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft
    QCC (Questions, Comments and Concerns) thread.

    This thread is for members to air any questions, comments or concerns they may have about the campaign. I shall do my best to answer them.

    Just a couple of points up front:

    (1) Dates for commencement of service
    For the aircraft in this campaign, the approximate service commencement dates I have given will not always exactly correspond with reference sources. This is usually because further reading sometimes shows either (a) that the dates given in those sources do not necessarily align with "full" squadron service as such; or (b) that squadron service began very late in the year and did not really become substantial or significant until the following year.
    Also, where two or more types or variants are combined as a single candidate in a poll, the year given represents whichever type/variant was the earliest in service.

    (2) If you spot a clear error on my part
    I have tried my best - within the time and resources available to me - to be accurate in the presentation of my information. However, I am aware of the chance that I might have made the odd factual or pictorial error here or there. If you spot something you know isn't correct, please advise me so I can fix it as soon as possible.
    Last edited by panther3485; 06 Dec 15, 02:57.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

    Comment


    • #3
      First, kudos and a huge thank you to "panther 3485" for putting this together.

      (I'll rep you again as soon as I spread more around!)

      Second, in that "influential/significant" role, I try to consider how much the design, performance characteristics, achievement record, period of service, versatility, and effectiveness of a particular aircraft affected current trends and future/next generation designs and considerations. Some become greater stand-outs than others. More in a moment ...

      Third, there are some curious match-ups here that seemed to go from one extreme to the other. For example, that of the Fw-190 versus P-47 I consider a very close call, near coin-toss, but I edged in favor of the P-47. Other side of the coin is something like the PBM versus the Zeke/Zero where it feels like comparing a race horse to a billy goat. All that aside, very interesting and excellent contest here.

      My head is still swimming with all the varied types of aircraft presented and obviously something of WWI vintage wouldn't play well in current situations and needs, but I'll co out on a limb and make a call on what I think might be the "winner". Bear in mind, anything that can operate off the deck of an aircraft carrier(as designed/intended) packs a huge bonus in my book on this sort of run-off, so with that in mind, at this moment I'm betting on the Spad, Douglas A-1 Skyraider as the one left when the dust settles. I've been up close to one of these in flying condition and considering it's history, range of variants and ruggedness of design, this one seems to me very durable and one that could handle an upgrade to serve early 21st century needs still.

      Granted, in many cases it's a question of multiple combat/fighting roles versus multiple utility roles, and while the Spad leans mostly towards the former, it still had some interesting applications in the latter.

      Comment


      • #4
        Further rumminations ...

        Well, more thoughts about this subject running about my "gray cells" ...

        Above, I've placed my money on a Douglas design the A-1 Skyraider/"Spad". A close runner-run and contender would be the D-3/C-47 given it's many varied versions and modifications, including some "field modifications"/uses that don't make the Wiki list. Another Douglas design is the A-26/B-26 Invader https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-26_Invader (beats out the Martin B-26 Marauder, IMO) as the sixteen .50 cal. gun version was a rather lethal ground attack aircraft, used in early stages of the USA involvement in VietNam, and there were a few (forest)fire-bomber versions as well (see one of my all-time favorite movies, "Always" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Always_%281989_film%29).

        Ain't easy for me to break loyalty with the 'home team', Boeing here, but have to admit that Douglas is one of the stand-out aircraft designers/builders of the 20th century!

        Speaking of Boeing, while the B-17 was in the list of contenders, some serving as Search-n-Rescue, 'recon', and target drones, I think the B-29/B-50/KC-20/C-97(Tu-4) line would have been a better contender. The B-29 set the template for high altitude, multi-engine, heavy bombers with it's pressurized crew cabins, and it's remote controlled gun-turrets, (and large payload/bomb bay capacity). Not to mention being the first and long serving "atomic weapons" bomber. Then there is the fact that the Soviets copied it as the Tu-4 and it was one of the first effective aerial tanker/re-fueling aircraft in the KB-29. Add on the basis for the C-97/KC-97 as well as the civilian Stratoliner and here is one of the most influential aircraft designs (IMO) of the 20th century. Oh yeah, other uses included search-n-rescue, recon, test-bed, target drone, and IIRC~ EW.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-29_Superfortress

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
          First, kudos and a huge thank you to "panther 3485" for putting this together.

          (I'll rep you again as soon as I spread more around!)

          Second, in that "influential/significant" role, I try to consider how much the design, performance characteristics, achievement record, period of service, versatility, and effectiveness of a particular aircraft affected current trends and future/next generation designs and considerations. Some become greater stand-outs than others. More in a moment ...

          Third, there are some curious match-ups here that seemed to go from one extreme to the other. For example, that of the Fw-190 versus P-47 I consider a very close call, near coin-toss, but I edged in favor of the P-47. Other side of the coin is something like the PBM versus the Zeke/Zero where it feels like comparing a race horse to a billy goat. All that aside, very interesting and excellent contest here.

          My head is still swimming with all the varied types of aircraft presented and obviously something of WWI vintage wouldn't play well in current situations and needs, but I'll co out on a limb and make a call on what I think might be the "winner". Bear in mind, anything that can operate off the deck of an aircraft carrier(as designed/intended) packs a huge bonus in my book on this sort of run-off, so with that in mind, at this moment I'm betting on the Spad, Douglas A-1 Skyraider as the one left when the dust settles. I've been up close to one of these in flying condition and considering it's history, range of variants and ruggedness of design, this one seems to me very durable and one that could handle an upgrade to serve early 21st century needs still.

          Granted, in many cases it's a question of multiple combat/fighting roles versus multiple utility roles, and while the Spad leans mostly towards the former, it still had some interesting applications in the latter.
          Thanks for the feedback there, David.

          Yes, we did finish up with some "odd" pairings in this first round. I think I made relatively "logical" pairings in the majority of cases but after several attempts I found it just about impossible to do that all the way to the very end, with 128 planes in 64 pairings and inevitably there were going to be some "interesting" (cough, cough) pairings left over by the time I got to the 64th one.

          In the interests of getting this thing up and running before Christmas 2015 and with many other pressures acting on my life beside this one, I settled on my third attempt. Furthermore, I did not consider it imperative to get all the pairings to be "ideal" anyway. As we progress from one round to the next in this tournament, it will inevitably become increasingly challenging to get "perfect" pairings so I don't propose to try too hard.

          Members who want to see this thing through to the end will need to adjust to the idea that some pairings will be between quite dissimilar types. Probably rather more so in the later rounds, I'm guessing.

          Educational and informative? I think so. Entertaining? Probably, for most. Challenging and engaging? I certainly hope so. Always "logical" with the pairings, so that everyone finds it reasonably easy all the way? Not a chance.

          .... but ... members can think of this as part of the "fun" if they like. Less stressful that way. Relax; enjoy; and remember never to get TOO serious.

          Best to all,
          panther3485
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • #6
            I will have to admit, there is one aircraft I will likely be voting for in every round. One of my favourite aircraft of all time: a dive-bomber, fighter-bomber, torpedo-bomber, night-fighter, reconnaissance aircraft, heavy fighter, and even a guided-bomb platform.


            Comment


            • #7
              Well done, Panther, anotherTour de force
              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
              Samuel Johnson.

              Comment


              • #8
                Excellent, Mr 3485. Most of the time, I'll just vote on the numbers produced, inspiration or instigation of other designs, followed by technical firsts then what I like. So Cessnas and the Il-2 are in with a good shot.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                  I will have to admit, there is one aircraft I will likely be voting for in every round. One of my favourite aircraft of all time: a dive-bomber, fighter-bomber, torpedo-bomber, night-fighter, reconnaissance aircraft, heavy fighter, and even a guided-bomb platform.

                  Yes, that aircraft rates quite highly in my estimation too. I wouldn't be surprised if it survives the first few rounds at the very least.

                  Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                  Well done, Panther, anotherTour de force
                  Thanks.

                  Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                  Excellent, Mr 3485. Most of the time, I'll just vote on the numbers produced, inspiration or instigation of other designs, followed by technical firsts then what I like. So Cessnas and the Il-2 are in with a good shot.
                  Thanks mate ... and your approach seems as good as any.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm guessing an extension on this first round due to the recent, nearly week-long outage?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                      I'm guessing an extension on this first round due to the recent, nearly week-long outage?
                      Possibly. We can accommodate an extension of, say, 1 or perhaps 2 weeks of extra time; if it looks like being necessary. Given the length of time ACG was down (pretty much a whole week), some members might not get back on for quite a while yet because they may not realize it's back up. I wouldn't want those members to be disadvantaged by missing the first round.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        WOW!

                        That was exhausting!

                        Tell you what, when we go to round two, we might leave these first round polls here and open a new sub-forum for the open polls. Would that make it easier to navigate? Moving everything to a single sub-forum after the finals is pretty easy.

                        Thoughts?
                        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                        Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
                          That was exhausting!

                          Tell you what, when we go to round two, we might leave these first round polls here and open a new sub-forum for the open polls. Would that make it easier to navigate? Moving everything to a single sub-forum after the finals is pretty easy.

                          Thoughts?
                          I don't think it would make the polls significantly easier to navigate as such. All 64 of the polls for Round 1 would automatically stay at the bottom because they would close before the polls for Round 2 are open; so all 32 of the polls for Round 2 would always be at the top. Same with successive Rounds, where the current round is always on top. Members would only need to go to previous rounds if they want to review something and they would only be able to view stuff, not vote or make additional posts. And speaking for myself I think I'd find it slightly annoying having to pop back and forth between two or more separate sub-forums if I wanted to check or refer back to anything?

                          On the other hand, if you are aware of "technical" reasons why separating Round 1 would be better (such as load on the server or whatever), then that's a different matter. Are there any technical issues of that nature?
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not that I'm aware of. So we keep things as they are.

                            ONWARD!
                            Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                            Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why no F4U Corsair? Excellent fighter, excellent ground attack.... Certainly belongs in this tournament. And more deserving than AC like the MiG25 or F14.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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