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Rnd 1 Grp A - Caudron G.4 (France) vs Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 (Britain)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp A - Caudron G.4 (France) vs Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 (Britain)

    Round 1, Group A: Caudron G.4 (France) vs Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 (Britain)




    Candidate #4 - Caudron G.4 (France)

    Service Intro - 1916
    Roles - bomber; recon; escort; trainer
    Quantity Produced - 1,421
    User Nations - France + 10 other countries

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caudron_G.4









    Candidate #7 - Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 (Britain)

    Service Intro - 1917
    Roles - bomber; recon; ground attack; tank support; contact-patrol; interceptor; artillery spotting
    Quantity Produced - 1,650
    User Nations - Britain, Australia, Paraguay

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth_F.K.8









    Will you vote for the G.4 or the F.K.8?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?


    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    75
    Caudron G.4 (France)
    45.33%
    34
    Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 (Britain)
    54.67%
    41

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 01 Jan 16, 09:17.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    The Armstrong Whitworth just seems like a more versatile aircraft.
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      Hard to decide this one. Will take more time to think about it.
      "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
      Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        Hard to decide this one. Will take more time to think about it.
        G.4
        "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
        Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

        Comment


        • #5
          A number of roles missing for the Big Ack
          Artillery spotting
          Tank support (a squadron was specifically allocated to the Royal Tank Corps and carried out such tasks as drowning out noise of approaching tanks with their own engine noise, detection of concealed anti tank guns, warning of tank ambushes/traps, destruction of AT guns etc etc)
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MarkV View Post
            A number of roles missing for the Big Ack
            Artillery spotting
            Tank support (a squadron was specifically allocated to the Royal Tank Corps and carried out such tasks as drowning out noise of approaching tanks with their own engine noise, detection of concealed anti tank guns, warning of tank ambushes/traps, destruction of AT guns etc etc)
            Just had a bit more of a quick read.
            Artillery spotting added for F.K.8
            Escort added for G.4

            Do you have a reference for the F.K.8's tank support role?
            "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
            Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
              Just had a bit more of a quick read.
              Artillery spotting added for F.K.8
              Escort added for G.4

              Do you have a reference for the F.K.8's tank support role?
              See any history of 8 squadron RAF also Tanks in the Great War by Fuller.
              First used in the role at Hamel and then at Amiens. After Amiens they were joined by a squadron of Camels. The FK 8s then concentrated on spotting and dealing with AT guns in place whilst the Camels prevented any mobile (especially motorised) AT guns entering the area of battle.
              Last edited by MarkV; 17 Dec 15, 04:40.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                See any history of 8 squadron RAF also Tanks in the Great War by Fuller.
                First used in the role at Hamel and then at Amiens. After Amiens they were joined by a squadron of Camels. The FK 8s then concentrated on spotting and dealing with AT guns in place whilst the Camels prevented any mobile (especially motorised) AT guns entering the area of battle.
                From wiki:
                " ... Armstrong Whitworth FK.8s replaced the B.E.2s in August 1917.
                In June 1918, No 8 Squadron, part of the Royal Air Force since 1 April 1918, was allocated to the Tank Corps, flying contact patrols in support of the Tank Corps attacks, and becoming expert in spotting and destroying German anti-tank guns. ... "
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._8_...on_RAF#History
                Good enough. Tank support added for the F.K.8.
                "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just a second...

                  Home Defence for the Big Ack is hardly a seperate ROLE. Objection to inclusion Panther....thats gilding the lilly in favour.

                  And could not the Tank support role have been played by ANY comparible aircraft of the day with the same motor? Hardly a seperate role either for this type of aircraft. Were other machines suitable but not available at the time, (this'll test ya Markus!)

                  Further, why does Tank Support have to be seperated as a distinct role, when you could lump all three of them into "Ground co-operation"?

                  I'm sure the G.$ could have fulfilled all of those roles, including artillery spotting, which any slow aircraft can do.

                  I'm voting for the cuadron on the basis that it could easily have fulfilled anything the Bick Ack could do.

                  Caudron
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                    Just a second...

                    Home Defence for the Big Ack is hardly a seperate ROLE. Objection to inclusion Panther....thats gilding the lilly in favour.
                    "Home defence" is pretty much just another way of saying, "interceptor".
                    For the purposes of this tournament, "interceptor" has been listed as one of the distinct and separate roles for any aircraft working as a fighter. ("Air superiority" would be another one.) Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable and it stays in place. However, in the hope that it might make you feel better I'll change "home defence" to "interceptor".


                    Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                    And could not the Tank support role have been played by ANY comparible aircraft of the day with the same motor? Hardly a seperate role either for this type of aircraft. Were other machines suitable but not available at the time, (this'll test ya Markus!)

                    Further, why does Tank Support have to be seperated as a distinct role, when you could lump all three of them into "Ground co-operation"?
                    Just occasionally and for a few roles, context, time period and specific situations can make an important different IMO.
                    Although "tank support" could be seen as a relatively routine part of "ground support" during WW2, it was a new and virtually unique role for WW1. In all likelihood so far as I can determine, the F.K.8 was the VERY FIRST aircraft to be deliberately and consistently used in this specific way, an a properly organized basis; which is definitely significant.
                    So it's staying in there. Some things are decided at my discretion and I'm making this one of them. Sorry if you don't like that but there it is. Condemn me as some kind of mad dictator if you like.


                    Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                    " ... I'm sure the G.$ could have fulfilled all of those roles, including artillery spotting, which any slow aircraft can do.

                    I'm voting for the cuadron on the basis that it could easily have fulfilled anything the Bick Ack could do.

                    Caudron
                    If you like, you can vote for the Caudron because it looks good, or because you are just in the mood for something French. You might even be able to find reasons based on things that were actually done with this aircraft. But heck, if you want to you can just vote for the Caudron to celebrate the New Year.

                    However, if you are going to use any kind of reasoning that's worth a damn, that reasoning needs to be based on REAL achievements, effects and benefits of an aircraft that impacted on its REAL significance and influence.

                    If on the other hand you choose to vote for an aircraft based on what it COULD have done, rather than what it ACTUALLY DID, then this is nothing more that the intellectual equivalent of masturbation. But you can do that too, if you like. Just don't try to pretend it's anything more.

                    Oh, and btw, you might have noticed that I voted for the G.4 myself? Or didn't you bother to look? So I'm supposedly gilding the lilly to favour the British aircraft? Mate, do YOURSELF a favour.
                    Last edited by panther3485; 01 Jan 16, 09:32.
                    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No offense intended, Splendid Cat!


                      idid laugh at your reply though....

                      If I do object, its not out of malice, just a "learned freind" doing the job!

                      The Big Ack should win hands down really, but I had to ask anyway why three seperate things were not lumped into one.

                      Don't be offended. This entire dog fight thing is a splendid piece of work from your good self, and I apologise for treading on toes!

                      Smack my botty! (whack! ouch!)
                      My Articles, ALMOST LIVE, exclusive to The Armchair!

                      Soviet Submarines in WW2....The Mythology of Shiloh....(Edited) Both Sides of the Warsaw Ghetto
                      GULAG Glossary....Who Really Killed The Red Baron?....Pearl Harbor At 75
                      Lincoln-Douglas Debates

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                        No offense intended, Splendid Cat!


                        idid laugh at your reply though....

                        If I do object, its not out of malice, just a "learned freind" doing the job!

                        The Big Ack should win hands down really, but I had to ask anyway why three seperate things were not lumped into one.

                        Don't be offended. This entire dog fight thing is a splendid piece of work from your good self, and I apologise for treading on toes!

                        Smack my botty! (whack! ouch!)
                        OK Chris, I'm not offended now.
                        Packing my bags ....
                        ... next plane to Darwin ....
                        "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                        Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                        • #13
                          Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 (Britain)

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