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Rnd 1 Grp C - Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor (Germany) vs Nakajima B5N "Kate" (Japan)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp C - Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor (Germany) vs Nakajima B5N "Kate" (Japan)

    Round 1, Group C: Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor (Germany) vs Nakajima B5N "Kate" (Japan)




    Candidate #42 - Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor (Germany)

    Service Intro - 1938
    Roles - airliner, recon, bomber, maritime patrol/anti shipping, transport
    Quantity Produced - 276
    User Nations - Germany, Brazil, Denmark

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200_Condor








    Candidate #46 - Nakajima B5N "Kate" (Japan)

    Service Intro - 1938
    Roles - light bomber; torpedo bomber; maritime recon; anti-submarine; trainer
    Quantity Produced - 1,149
    User Nations - Japan

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_B5N









    Will you vote for the Condor or the Kate?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?


    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    84
    Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor (Germany)
    38.10%
    32
    Nakajima B5N ("Kate") (Japan)
    61.90%
    52

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 12 Jan 16, 00:35.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    The Fw 200 was an expedient, and remained in service mostly because the Germans simply couldn't get something to replace it. It was never used in large numbers and outside the role of maritime patrol and in its original guise as a transport it had no role.

    The B5N special attack aircraft was used by the IJN as a torpedo plane, a horizontal bomber, radar equipped ASW patrol aircraft, and occasionally in the maritime reconnaissance role. It also became a Kamikaze aircraft late in the war.

    Comment


    • #3
      The Kate. It was a real threat to warships and sank many more.
      Credo quia absurdum.


      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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      • #4
        The Kate. The Kondor was a stop-gasp for convoy reconnaisance and frequently broke behind the main spar from the additional weight of weapons and armor.

        It was replaced in it's reconnaisance role by the far more able JU88's.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          The Fw 200 was an expedient, and remained in service mostly because the Germans simply couldn't get something to replace it. It was never used in large numbers and outside the role of maritime patrol and in its original guise as a transport it had no role.

          The B5N special attack aircraft was used by the IJN as a torpedo plane, a horizontal bomber, radar equipped ASW patrol aircraft, and occasionally in the maritime reconnaissance role. It also became a Kamikaze aircraft late in the war.
          Sums it up. Kate.
          Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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          • #6
            This has been my closest contest. The Condor had a nasty habit of breaking in two and the Kate did not have self sealing fuel tanks. I went with the Kate.
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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            • #7
              Big Bird - first 4 engined airliner. All metal monocoque. 747s think they're reincarnations of these.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Kate was a killer, even as a Kamakaze. I'd say it inspired some pretty serious counter-measures.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Kate
                  "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                  Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                    Big Bird - first 4 engined airliner.
                    Not by a country mile First 4 engined airliner was a Russian Sikorsky in 1913. First four engined all metal monoplane air liner was the Zeppelin-Staaken E-4/20 of 1919. The Sikorsky offered the first in flight meals served by an air steward (of less long term value was the outside promenade on top of the fuselage). This aircraft gave rise to a fleet of four engined bombers.
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by MarkV; 16 Dec 15, 08:53.
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                    • #11
                      Love 'em both, but I have to go with the Kate.
                      SGT, 210th MP Battalion, 2nd MP BDE, MSSG

                      Fervently PRO-TRUMP, anti-Islam and anti-Steelers!

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                      • #12
                        Ho can you not vote for an aircraft described by Winston himself as "The Scourge of the Atlantic"?

                        Easily.

                        The B5N2 is a fine example of what was wrong with Japanese Naval/Army aviation in WW2.

                        Lack of aircrews spelled the end.

                        As an example for the Allies, the Empire Air Training Scheme, in Australia ALONE, turned out over 14,000 pilots between 1938(?) and 1945.

                        Thats is Ozland alone.

                        How could the Japanese expect to counter that? As long as we kept producing better and better aircraft types, we always had the people to fly them.

                        Better and better airframes for the Japanese did not equate to the same scenario. And their late war designs were not undesirable craft at all.

                        Lack of pilots and aircrew, simple as that.

                        Another thing...

                        The Kates reputation as a ship buster had more to do with the wonderful torpedo she carried, rather than any inherent superiority as an airframe.

                        It still had no self-seal tanks and armour, so was as big a death trap for pilots and crews as any other IJN aircraft.

                        The "Kate" might win here, but I don't expect it to go much further. We are saying, in effect, that the "Long Lance" oxygen contact warhead torpedo was the most influential, not the aircraft itself. Put a Long Lance on something like a Douglas Devestator, and watch it's poor performance suddenly get better. Not that it would turn a howling dog like the Devestator into a war winning craft, but much better.

                        KATE...to be illiminated if there is any justice.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Drusus Nero View Post
                          It still had no self-seal tanks and armour, so was as big a death trap for pilots and crews as any other IJN aircraft.

                          The "Kate" might win here, but I don't expect it to go much further. We are saying, in effect, that the "Long Lance" oxygen contact warhead torpedo was the most influential, not the aircraft itself. Put a Long Lance on something like a Douglas Devestator, and watch it's poor performance suddenly get better. Not that it would turn a howling dog like the Devestator into a war winning craft, but much better.

                          KATE...to be illiminated if there is any justice.
                          I made this same mistake earlier and was corrected on it: contrary to popular belief the Japanese Type 91 aerial torpedo was not oxygen driven but electric; it was its own design and not a miniaturized version of the Long Lance.
                          Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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                          • #14
                            It still elevated the "Kate" into something it devinately was NOT.

                            When you build a warbird, you must have crew survivability at or near the top of the list. It takes far longer and is far more expensive to replace a pilot/navigator/gunner than what it is to roll out another "Kate" from storage.

                            The size of the warhead (over 1,000 pounds, as opposed to 700 odd for the american torpedoes", turned any Japanese torpedo bomber into a ship killer of great worth. Without it, just an unarmoured deathtrap.

                            Not for nothing did the US Navy sacrifice range and speed for crew survivability.

                            Aircraft can be replaced. Pilots in particular are hard to train to begin with, let alone survive long enough to become true combat flyers.

                            Take the efficient torpedo away from the Kate and it's just another design with no crew protection, or no ability to withstand battle damage.

                            I should have realised you cant have an oxygen driven torpedo dropped from an aircraft. When in a submarine, the oxygen system has to be 'enabled' in a process thats impossible from the cockpit of an aircraft.

                            The sheer size of the warhead makes the torpedo a killer. AND the reliable contact detonator. Imagine trying to fiddle with magnetic warheads in that period! You'd have entire strikes of torpedo bombers failing to score at all!

                            Dive bombing may have been more accurate, but in terms of sinking the ship. the airiel torpedo was the weapon of choice. A dive bomber ordnance also takes on tough deck armour and thick turrets.

                            A torpedo can sidestep all of these considerations, and go for the jugular.

                            but, I state again, without this reliable weapon system, the Kate was just another torpedo bomber, unprotected, unsurvivable, but with long legs.

                            I look forward to seeing the Kate go down in later rounds.
                            My Articles, ALMOST LIVE, exclusive to The Armchair!

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                            GULAG Glossary....Who Really Killed The Red Baron?....Pearl Harbor At 75
                            Lincoln-Douglas Debates

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                            • #15
                              The Kate was one of the true multi-use aircraft of the Pacific War. On a par with the Avenger (but not the Dauntless)

                              Susie
                              Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                              Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                              For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                              And battles long ago:
                              -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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