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Rnd 1 Grp D - Martin PBM Mariner (USA) vs Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" (Japan)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp D - Martin PBM Mariner (USA) vs Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" (Japan)

    Round 1, Group D: Martin PBM Mariner (USA) vs Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" (Japan)





    Candidate #57 - Martin PBM Mariner (USA)

    Service Intro - 1940
    Roles - maritime patrol; anti-submarine; air-sea rescue; transport
    Quantity Produced - 1,405
    User Nations - USA, Argentina, Australia, Britain, Netherlands

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_PBM_Mariner









    Candidate #58 - Mitsubishi A6M "Zero"* (Japan)
    (*For tournament purposes, includes both "Zeke" and "Rufe" in Allied parlance)

    Service Intro - 1940
    Roles - long-range fighter; fighter-bomber; floatplane; communications/liaison; trainer
    Quantity Produced - 10,939
    User Nations - Japan, China, Indonesia, Thailand

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_A6M_Zero









    Will you vote for the Mariner or the Zero?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?


    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    87
    Martin PBM Mariner (USA)
    25.29%
    22
    Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" ("Zeke") (Japan)
    74.71%
    65

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 03 Jan 16, 00:09.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    Mariners had a leaky fuel system that tended to explode. The Zero also could explode if you hit a fuel tank! The Zero was very hard to hit, though!
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      Zero
      "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
      Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        Mariners had a leaky fuel system that tended to explode. The Zero also could explode if you hit a fuel tank! The Zero was very hard to hit, though!
        Not as hard as is sometimes supposed - a CAC Wirraway even got the jump on one and shot it down. The Zero was only as good as the pilot and the lack of armour and tank sealing on the original design meant it was more difficult to survive long enough to become a good pilot.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • #5
          Numbers dictate the Bitsashiti

          Comment


          • #6
            Odd pairing for my thinking. Zero.
            John

            Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JBark View Post
              Odd pairing for my thinking. Zero.
              Yeah, I had pairings in each Group I thought were OK/good but in some cases there were a few odd ones left over. Still, I guess these will get some members starting to think "outside the square" so to speak; which may not be such a bad idea because we'll likely have some more odd pairings as we go along and we might very easily finish up with something just as odd, if not more so, for the Final.
              Last edited by panther3485; 24 Dec 15, 21:18.
              "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
              Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

              Comment


              • #8
                I knew a guy who's father flew a Mariner in the Pacific Theater during WW2. His father had been checked out on other similar aircraft, I recall him telling me that it was one of the best, and certainly better than the PBY Catalina for several reasons. Well, he flew them.

                A little Zero seaplane doesn't compare for this match up.
                My worst jump story:
                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                No lie.

                ~
                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                Comment


                • #9
                  would be a pity to eliminate the Zero so early, but....

                  The Mariner SAVED lives...

                  The Zero's 'superiority' was short lived. Its 'superiorness" was based on leaving stuff out that should have been essential for a combat aircraft, like armour and self sealing tanks. The Zero quickly became a death trap for novice pilots, and that was to have far more influence, negatively speaking, than anything it did in a combat role. The empire of Japan had no mass pilot training program. every new pilot that went down meant larger problems further down the track.

                  contrast to US fighters of the period. they can all dive like gangbusters, have a big puch with x6 .50 cal mgs, and they can take more hits in combat than Popeye.

                  And its this last quality that makes them combat aircraft of worth. New pilots must have a chance to let their flight school training mature into proper combat veterans. How many new Zero pilots bit the dust to this design's lack of the essentials.

                  Turkey Shoot, anyone? Those 301 pilots lost over the Mariana's were the IJN pilots of tomorrow. The Carrier war needed their skills. And that Turkey Shoot showed what an uphill struggle it was going to be. Insurmountable.

                  the Zero is a VERY overated aircraft.

                  Martin Mariner, if you please. It saved pilots that went on to shoot down others.
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                  • #10
                    PBM was more truly multi role.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Its looks like the Mariner isn't going to pull it off...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
                        Its looks like the Mariner isn't going to pull it off...
                        The ZERO fanboys don't understand the question.
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                          The ZERO fanboys don't understand the question.
                          Unfortunately, I am not incredibly educated on aircraft. When we did the first few I did more research, but this one seemed really overwhelming for some reason - maybe because its so far outside of my interests. That's a good thing. This should be really educational, and its been interesting to read everyone's comments when I don't have predisposed opinions.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            IMO, the Mariner is arguably more evenly multi-role, or more suitable for "multi-role ness" than the Zero.

                            However, my vote for the A6M was ultimately swayed by sheer numbers. Almost 11,000 A6M vs just under 1,500 for the PBM.
                            IMHO, the Zero - though obviously flawed in certain ways - carried a greater overall significance/influence factor than the Mariner on account of its numbers.
                            But ask me which plane I'd prefer to be in, and I'd take the Mariner any time.

                            Don't forget, guys, that this is just the first Round. We have six more to go. If this were a boxing match, we've only had the first few exploratory jabs.
                            At the end, only one aircraft type will be left standing and I'd lay a fortnight's pay it won't be either of these two.
                            Last edited by panther3485; 02 Jan 16, 21:05.
                            "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                            Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "The A6M2-N floatplane was developed from the Mitsubishi A6M Zero Type 0, for the purposes of supporting amphibious operations and defending remote bases. It was based on the A6M-2 Model 11 fuselage, with a modified tail and added floats."

                              Not the Zero everyone thought it was, Rufe not Zeke.
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment

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