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Rnd 1 Grp F - Messerschmitt Me 210 & 410 (Germany) vs Fairey Firefly (Britain)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp F - Messerschmitt Me 210 & 410 (Germany) vs Fairey Firefly (Britain)

    Round 1, Group F: Messerschmitt Me 210 & 410 Hornisse (Germany) vs Fairey Firefly (Britain)





    Candidate #83 - Messerschmitt Me 210 & 410 Hornisse (Germany)

    Service Intro - 1943
    Roles - day & night fighter; fighter-bomber; dive bomber; anti-shipping; recon
    Quantity Produced - 1,779
    User Nations - Germany, Hungary

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_410









    Candidate #85 - Fairey Firefly (Britain)

    Service Intro - 1944
    Roles - fighter, ground attack; anti-shipping/submarine; recon; trainer
    Quantity Produced - 1,702
    User Nations - Britain, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Ethiopia, Netherlands, India, Sweden, Thailand

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Firefly








    Will you vote for the Hornisse (Hornet) or the Firefly?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?


    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    81
    Messerschmitt Me 210 & 410 (Germany)
    69.14%
    56
    Fairey Firefly (Britain)
    30.86%
    25

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 16 Dec 15, 19:36.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    The Firefly had too many conflicting design problems. Me 210/410 for me.
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      The Firefly was far more widely used: in numerous theatres.
      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
      Samuel Johnson.

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      • #4
        I thought it would be Firefly too.
        Mainly because the 210/.410 were such Dogs.

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        • #5
          The Firefly was a very compromised fighter plane by the time it actually entered service. It served in very few roles beyond carrier day and night fighter.

          The Me 210 / 410 was basically an "improved" Me 110, at least in theory. It saw use as a day fighter, fighter bomber, light bomber, night fighter, reconnaissance aircraft, and in several other roles. Definitely both a better multipurpose aircraft and one that had more unique features such as it's remote control defensive machineguns.

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          • #6
            I think I'll have a bit more difficulty deciding this one because IMHO it's fairly close. I'll take some more time over it.
            "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
            Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              The Firefly was a very compromised fighter plane by the time it actually entered service. It served in very few roles beyond carrier day and night fighter.

              The Me 210 / 410 was basically an "improved" Me 110, at least in theory. It saw use as a day fighter, fighter bomber, light bomber, night fighter, reconnaissance aircraft, and in several other roles. Definitely both a better multipurpose aircraft and one that had more unique features such as it's remote control defensive machineguns.
              For Me 210/410 - "day" added to "night fighter".
              "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
              Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                I think I'll have a bit more difficulty deciding this one because IMHO it's fairly close. I'll take some more time over it.
                Firefly for me.
                "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  The Firefly was a very compromised fighter plane by the time it actually entered service. It served in very few roles beyond carrier day and night fighter.

                  The Me 210 / 410 was basically an "improved" Me 110, at least in theory. It saw use as a day fighter, fighter bomber, light bomber, night fighter, reconnaissance aircraft, and in several other roles. Definitely both a better multipurpose aircraft and one that had more unique features such as it's remote control defensive machineguns.
                  Firefly did pretty well as a strike air craft and also in the Anti Submarine role.
                  Also used as a drone (U9),

                  Didn't tend to kill its crews like the 210
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                  • #10
                    Went FF over 210/410 because it was at least a success. Neither should progress much further.
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                    • #11
                      Oh, two more roles the Me 410 operated in:

                      Dive bomber... Yes, that was an original design requirement.

                      Anti-shipping strike aircraft. As the Me 410B-5 and B-6. The B-5 carried a torpedo. Both were fitted with radar in some cases and could use other ordinance against ships too.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        Oh, two more roles the Me 410 operated in:

                        Dive bomber... Yes, that was an original design requirement.

                        Anti-shipping strike aircraft. As the Me 410B-5 and B-6. The B-5 carried a torpedo. Both were fitted with radar in some cases and could use other ordinance against ships too.

                        Anti-shipping I got already.

                        Was the type ever actually used in the dive-bomber role as such? I don't seem to be able to find a reference that says it was.
                        "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                        Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                          Anti-shipping I got already.

                          Was the type ever actually used in the dive-bomber role as such? I don't seem to be able to find a reference that says it was.
                          Warplanes of the Third Reich William Green. He lists the Me 210A-2 as a dive bomber with secondary capacity as a Zerstörer. The Hungarian Me 210Ca-1 was the same way.

                          That's the reason for the little windows on the nose of the plane. So the pilot can line up for a bombing / dive bombing run.


                          The Bf 110 carried its ordnance externally, on the wings and fuselage, but this created drag; the Me 210 avoided this problem by housing the bombs in an enclosed bomb bay, in the nose of the aircraft. The Me 210 could carry up to two 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs. The Me 210 had dive brakes fitted on the tops of the wings, and a Stuvi 5B bombsight ("Stuvi"-Sturzkampfvisier, dive-bombing sight) in the nose, for shallow-angle dive bombing. In the fighter role, the bomb bay was fitted with four 20 mm cannons.
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            Warplanes of the Third Reich William Green. He lists the Me 210A-2 as a dive bomber with secondary capacity as a Zerstörer. The Hungarian Me 210Ca-1 was the same way.

                            That's the reason for the little windows on the nose of the plane. So the pilot can line up for a bombing / dive bombing run.


                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210
                            Yeah, thanks for that.
                            The wiki article which I've already seen does list "dive bomber" as a role. I hung back because I wasn't sure the aircraft actually did carry out that role in physical reality and IIRC wiki doesn't positively say yay or nay. However, I'll add it now and if I need to remove it later in light of further info then I guess I can do that.

                            EDIT - Just found it in one of my books, referring to Me 210 in Hungarian use (my bold):

                            "The Hungarian 210Cs flew on the Eastern Front as dive bomber and close support aircraft and as day and night fighters for home defence"

                            Aircraft of WWII, Stewart Wilson, Aerospace Publications

                            Last edited by panther3485; 16 Dec 15, 20:12.
                            "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                            Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              Yeah, thanks for that.
                              The wiki article which I've already seen does list "dive bomber" as a role. I hung back because I wasn't sure the aircraft actually did carry out that role in physical reality and IIRC wiki doesn't positively say yay or nay. However, I'll add it now and if I need to remove it later in light of further info then I guess I can do that.

                              EDIT - Just found it in one of my books, referring to Me 210 in Hungarian use (my bold):

                              "The Hungarian 210Cs flew on the Eastern Front as dive bomber and close support aircraft and as day and night fighters for home defence"

                              Aircraft of WWII, Stewart Wilson, Aerospace Publications

                              The original 210 specification was as a fighter bomber capable of dive bombing at the time the Germans had a dive bomber capability fixation - even the He Grief had dive bomber capacity.
                              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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