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Rnd 7 - Supermarine Spitfire (Britain) vs Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

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  • Rnd 7 - Supermarine Spitfire (Britain) vs Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

    Round 7 (Final):

    Supermarine Spitfire (Britain) vs Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)


    Supermarine Spitfire
    In the European theatre the Spitfire managed for most of the war to maintain either parity or superiority against its principal opponents; the main exception being a period of almost a year during 1941/42, when the German Fw 190 was clearly superior to the Spitfire Mk. V (the current model at that time) in most important aspects. The performance gap was closed by the introduction of the Spitfire Mk. IX in June 1942, with continuous improvements and successive marks keeping the Spitfire at parity or better for the remainder of the war. A significant upgrade was the introduction of the considerably more powerful Rolls Royce Griffon engine which powered some of the later marks and helped the British fighter to continue to remain highly competitive. However, physical attributes and effective design aside, perhaps one of the most important things about the Spitfire was what it came to stand for; to the Allied side in general but particularly to the peoples of the British Commonwealth/Empire. To many, it became a symbol of freedom in their struggle against tyranny; its very existence - to say nothing of its presence - boosting morale. This powerful sentiment has carried down the generations to the present day. To be sure, some other fighters have been inspirational to their people; but perhaps none in quite the same way as this Supermarine design which "made its mark" during the darkest days of the War and in particular, during the Battle of Britain.

    Messerschmitt Me 262
    The Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") of Nazi Germany was the world's first combat-operational jet fighter. Design work started before World War II began but engine problems and other issues kept the aircraft from operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. Heavily armed, it was much faster than any Allied fighter, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor. The Me 262 was used in a variety of roles including day fighter/interceptor, light bomber, reconnaissance and experimental night fighter versions. Me 262 pilots claimed a total of 542 Allied kills, although higher claims are sometimes made. The Allies countered its potential effectiveness in the air by attacking the aircraft on the ground and during takeoff and landing. Engine reliability problems, from the pioneering nature of its Junkers Jumo 004 axial-flow turbojet engines - the first ones ever placed in mass production - and attacks by Allied forces on fuel supplies during the deteriorating late-war situation also reduced the effectiveness of the aircraft. In the end, the Me 262 had a negligible impact on the course of the war. German use of the aircraft ended with the close of the Second World War but a small number were operated by the Czechoslovak Air Force until 1951. Captured Me 262s were studied and flight tested by the major powers, the information gleaned adding substantially to the pool of information already derived from Allied jet aircraft developments.


    So, in this final contest, which of these two fighters should emerge with the winner's trophy?
    Does the Spitfire stand up better to our criteria for significance/influence or does that honour belong to the Me 262?
    Will you be voting Supermarine or Messerschmitt?


    Only one aircraft can emerge from this poll as ACG's
    Most Significant/Influential Fighter Plane!


    Which of them IS the most significant and/or influential?




    Candidate #53 - Supermarine Spitfire (Britain)

    Full Service From (approx) 1938
    Quantity produced - 20,351
    User Nations - Britain and many other countries (See Wiki link below)

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire











    Candidate #83 - Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

    Full Service From (approx) 1944
    Quantity produced - 1,433
    User Nations - Germany, Czechoslovakia

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262










    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    98
    Supermarine Spitfire (Britain)
    45.92%
    45
    Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)
    54.08%
    53

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 30 May 15, 08:45.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Well, I'll be honest. I expected the Me262 to make it to the final or very close to it. The Spitfire? Still scratching my head over that.

    Comment


    • #3
      This has been a great experience, Panther, and full credit goes to you. There should probable be an achievement ward for those like yourself who create these contests.
      Bravo Zulu, sir.

      Meanwhile, I have to stick with the Me262. It remains, to me, the ultimate game changer, the paradigm shift in how aerial wars were fought forever afterwards.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • #4
        The Spit was the more signifigant aircraft.

        The Swallow was the more influential one.

        Then there was the X-69 Gargle which won every argument.

        (JSBark deserves any and all credit for making that connection. If it offended you red rep me. If you laughed green rep him. If you didn't get the joke PM Emtos and tell him Putin looks kinda gay)

        In all seriousness I'm torn. I don't think either should be here, but seeing they are I'll go the Spit purely because it did so much, and because the Me was a prototype rushed into service out of necessity while allied prototypes were allowed to develop as they needed to (and then led to better jets while the 262 was a bit of a dead end other than the 'go fast = good angle)
        Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

        That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
          Well, I'll be honest. I expected the Me262 to make it to the final or very close to it. The Spitfire? Still scratching my head over that.
          Fan boyz...

          They threw the contest so that the 'tang wouldn't compete against the spit.

          Fearful lot, them...
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
            Well, I'll be honest. I expected the Me262 to make it to the final or very close to it. The Spitfire? Still scratching my head over that.
            Speaking with equal honesty, I didn't really expect either of these fighters to make it all the way to the Final; although I wasn't overly surprised that they both got to the Quarter-Final (Round 5). After that, things curved even further away from the path I had anticipated.

            Having said this - and to state the blindingly obvious - we are where we are mainly because of the votes of the members; most of whom have (I choose to believe) put at least a reasonable amount of thought into their choices.




            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            This has been a great experience, Panther, and full credit goes to you. There should probable be an achievement ward for those like yourself who create these contests.
            Bravo Zulu, sir.
            Thanks my friend, and I have enjoyed it a lot too.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Meanwhile, I have to stick with the Me262. It remains, to me, the ultimate game changer, the paradigm shift in how aerial wars were fought forever afterwards.
            Fair enough; I can see you've considered everything carefully. At the end of the day, I think most of us have been thinking about our votes properly before making our choices.
            Each of us may call it differently from the next guy but I'm satisfied the majority are calling it honestly, as they see it.

            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
            Fan boyz...

            They threw the contest so that the 'tang wouldn't compete against the spit.

            Fearful lot, them...
            Regardless of why it happened, and given that the Spitfire was winning against the Fw 190 in the Semi, I would have preferred to see the P-51 go forward as well, so we'd get a Spitfire vs Mustang final.
            Alas, 'twas not to be.
            Last edited by panther3485; 30 May 15, 13:37.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              Fan boyz...

              They threw the contest so that the 'tang wouldn't compete against the spit.

              Fearful lot, them...
              Yeah right .
              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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              • #8
                Neither should be here, but the Me 262 is less deserving to be in the final.

                At least the Spitfire is around the 3rd most significant fighter of WW2, and its influence in W Allied propaganda cannot be denied.

                The Me 262 was not the first operational jet. That honour belongs to the US.
                The Me 262 was (barely) the first operational jet in a combat zone.
                The Me 262 was not the first operational jet to shoot down an enemy aircraft. That honour belongs to the British.

                The Me 262's influence was not in its impact on Western jets, but in kickstarting the Soviet jet development. However....

                Not one jet since has looked liked the Me 262, used its engines, or carried its armament. The wings were not swept enough to effect its high speed performance, this sweeping was a solution to another problem.

                The Me 262 was an influential plane, but hardly significant.
                How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                  Neither should be here, but the Me 262 is less deserving to be in the final.

                  At least the Spitfire is around the 3rd most significant fighter of WW2, and its influence in W Allied propaganda cannot be denied.

                  The Me 262 was not the first operational jet. That honour belongs to the US.
                  The Me 262 was (barely) the first operational jet in a combat zone.
                  The Me 262 was not the first operational jet to shoot down an enemy aircraft. That honour belongs to the British.

                  The Me 262's influence was not in its impact on Western jets, but in kickstarting the Soviet jet development. However....

                  Not one jet since has looked liked the Me 262, used its engines, or carried its armament. The wings were not swept enough to effect its high speed performance, this sweeping was a solution to another problem.

                  The Me 262 was an influential plane, but hardly significant.
                  But aren't most modern planes even further from the Spitfire in terms of looks and design? I mean, were there lots of modern jets with the rounded wings?

                  It might seem small beans, but from where I stand even the 2nd or 3rd most important jet fighter of WW2 was far more influential than the most influential prop-driven plane.

                  When it comes to fighter aircraft, propellers are an evolutionary dead-end. They've continued in other areas, such as transportation, COIN operations, etc., but not as fighter aircraft.

                  For better or for worst, whenever someone mentions the history of modern fighters, they are going to trace them back to planes like the Meteor and the Me 262 - and not the Spitfire.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                    Fan boyz...

                    They threw the contest so that the 'tang wouldn't compete against the spit.

                    Fearful lot, them...
                    I think fan boyz are what got the Spitfire and Mustang as far as they did as both were the iconic planes of WW II. I like the looks of the Me 262 and its performance was revolutionary in combat, but I am hardly a fan boy of it. I think the wing design on the Spitfire is absolutely beautiful and it performed when it was really needed, but I am not a fanboy of it either.

                    The Me 262 is more influential in my mind, but the Spitfire was more significant. I will let this one percolate for awhile before voting.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Afghanisdan View Post
                      I think fan boyz are what got the Spitfire and Mustang as far as they did as both were the iconic planes of WW II. I like the looks of the Me 262 and its performance was revolutionary in combat, but I am hardly a fan boy of it. I think the wing design on the Spitfire is absolutely beautiful and it performed when it was really needed, but I am not a fanboy of it either.

                      The Me 262 is more influential in my mind, but the Spitfire was more significant. I will let this one percolate for awhile before voting.
                      It could not have been said better. The Spit and Mustang are great aircraft in their own right, but however you cut it the Me 262 set the pace for future jet fighter aircraft.
                      My worst jump story:
                      My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                      As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                      No lie.

                      ~
                      "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                      -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        First, a huge thanks to Panther for another great campaign!

                        I look forward to the next one. (hint, hint)

                        Now to the planes. I'm in agreement with those that feel neither aircraft should have made it this far. Quarter finals, certainly, but not the final.

                        Anyhoo...... Me262 wins.
                        ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                        BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                        BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Afghanisdan View Post
                          I think fan boyz are what got the Spitfire and Mustang as far as they did as both were the iconic planes of WW II. I like the looks of the Me 262 and its performance was revolutionary in combat, but I am hardly a fan boy of it. I think the wing design on the Spitfire is absolutely beautiful and it performed when it was really needed, but I am not a fanboy of it either.

                          The Me 262 is more influential in my mind, but the Spitfire was more significant. I will let this one percolate for awhile before voting.
                          The swallow looks like a Great White shark to me. (One of the reasons I gave up diving.)

                          I had a 12 gauge bang stick and was confronted by one that was at least 18' long with a mouth damn near as big. I looked at the bang stick and the shark, shook my head and dived to the bottom. Swam to the beach and sold my dry suit. Never again...
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                            It could not have been said better. The Spit and Mustang are great aircraft in their own right, but however you cut it the Me 262 set the pace for future jet fighter aircraft.
                            What a load of bollocks.

                            If the Me 262 had arrived on the scene, and everyone else had tried to copy it you might be right. The fact remains the US had the first operational jet fighter, and the British had the first jet fighter that shot an enemy aircraft down.

                            What the Me 262 did was to herald in Soviet aircraft design. That is important, much like the T-34 pushed Nazi tank design. Unfortunately for the Nazi's, the Panther was basically a failure as a complete design. The same is true of the Me 262. It had influence, but no real combat impact.

                            The Mig 15 was partly the result of the Me 262. The fact that its initial impact in Korea was abruptly cut short reflects the impact of the Me 262. Both the Soviet and Nazi aircraft had their virtues, but their enemies extremely quickly countered them.

                            The Mig 15 was more than adequately countered by the F-86 Sabre. The fact that the Sabre was basically ready for Korea proves that a nation willing to wait a tad to get its design right wins.

                            The Me 262 is a loser in almost every respect.

                            The Spitfire does not deserve to win the most significant/influential fighter poll. It was not even the most significant fighter in WW2. However, the Me 262 is even less deserving, having no significant impact in combat, and only influential in countries that lost every jet war.

                            The Me 262 was a prototype put into combat before its time. It is like a Panther, but even less impressive in service.
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                            • #15
                              What can I say? All those posts about the swept wings on the Me 262 finally convinced me!

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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