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Rnd 6 - North American P-51 Mustang (USA) vs Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

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  • Rnd 6 - North American P-51 Mustang (USA) vs Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

    Round 6 (Semi-Final): North American P-51 Mustang (USA) vs Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)


    North American P-51 Mustang
    The P-51 Mustang was used during World War II, the Korean War and other conflicts. It had been conceived, designed and built by North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a specification by the British Purchasing Commission. The Mustang was originally fitted with the Allison V-1710 engine, which had limited high-altitude performance. The change to a Rolls-Royce Merlin in the P-51B/C model transformed the Mustang's performance at altitudes above 15,000 ft, matching or bettering that of the Luftwaffe's fighters; and it turned a good fighter plane into a truly outstanding one. The Mustang was found to be suitable for a variety of roles but its perceived forte in WW2 - and perhaps its greatest contribution to the final winning of the war - was as a long-range escort fighter in 1944 and 1945. Shepherding fleets of B-24 and B-17 bombers deep into German airspace, it became the first Allied fighter that had not only the required range to go that far, fight, and return home; but also the ability to mix it with the best German piston-engined fighters on equal terms or better. Indeed, by forcing the Germans to continuously engage large numbers of the excellent P-51s in their efforts to intercept American bombers, the Luftwaffe fighter arm - already in qualitative decline after years of attrition - was attrited even more heavily and quickly. This was a major factor in the steeply accelerated decline of the Jagdwaffe's effectiveness over the last year of WW2, which helped to ensure Allied air superiority for the invasion and re-taking of Western Europe. In the later stage of the war, the P-51 was also significant as a long-range fighter against the Japanese.
    At the start of the Korean War in 1950, the Mustang was the main fighter of the United Nations until jet fighters such as the F-86 took over this role. Despite the advent of the jets, the Mustang remained in service with some air forces until the early 1980s.

    Messerschmitt Me 262
    The Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") of Nazi Germany was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Design work started before World War II began but engine problems and other issues kept the aircraft from operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. Heavily armed, it was faster than any Allied fighter, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor. The Me 262 was used in a variety of roles including day fighter/interceptor, light bomber, reconnaissance and experimental night fighter versions. Me 262 pilots claimed a total of 542 Allied kills, although higher claims are sometimes made. The Allies countered its potential effectiveness in the air by attacking the aircraft on the ground and during takeoff and landing. Engine reliability problems, from the pioneering nature of its Junkers Jumo 004 axial-flow turbojet engines - the first ones ever placed in mass production - and attacks by Allied forces on fuel supplies during the deteriorating late-war situation also reduced the effectiveness of the aircraft. In the end, the Me 262 had a negligible impact on the course of the war. German use of the aircraft ended with the close of the Second World War but a small number were operated by the Czechoslovak Air Force until 1951. Captured Me 262s were studied and flight tested by the major powers, and ultimately influenced the designs of a number of post-war aircraft such as the North American F-86 Sabre and Boeing B-47 Stratojet.

    Does the Me 262 measure up better for significance/influence or does that honour belong to the P-51? Will you vote Messerschmitt or North American?

    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the Final!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?




    Candidate #70 - North American P-51 Mustang (USA)

    Full Service From (approx) Ė 1942
    Quantity produced - 15,576
    User Nations - USA and many other nations (See Wiki link below)

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...n_P-51_Mustang












    Candidate #83 - Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

    Full Service From (approx) Ė 1944
    Quantity produced - 1,433
    User Nations - Germany, Czechoslovakia

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262










    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    101
    North American P-51 Mustang (USA)
    45.54%
    46
    Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)
    54.46%
    55

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 16 May 15, 07:05.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    I went with the P-51 I often get to voting like this and am swayed away from logical thinking about influential or significant a vote based on good looks or a bad ass nose canon (Me 262.) Here I'm going with the awesome good looks of the P-51 and adding its influence on the outcome of WWII. The 262 did not influence the outcome of the war but was significant as the first jet fighter. What did first jet powered aircraft mean in the grand scheme of things. Nothing for Germany's war effort except another attempt to use technology to win an unwinnable war.

    (On a personal note I have stood about 20 yards from a P-51 while it ran its engine at high rpm's...WOW! Hope I'll be able to see a Me-262 some day.)
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

    Comment


    • #3
      In my opinion the Me-262 was too influential for it to lose this one.

      Me-262 wins handily.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JBark View Post
        I went with the P-51 I often get to voting like this and am swayed away from logical thinking about influential or significant a vote based on good looks or a bad ass nose canon (Me 262.) Here I'm going with the awesome good looks of the P-51 and adding its influence on the outcome of WWII. The 262 did not influence the outcome of the war but was significant as the first jet fighter. What did first jet powered aircraft mean in the grand scheme of things. Nothing for Germany's war effort except another attempt to use technology to win an unwinnable war.

        (On a personal note I have stood about 20 yards from a P-51 while it ran its engine at high rpm's...WOW! Hope I'll be able to see a Me-262 some day.)
        In my own estimation, the P-51 deserves - and IMO should get - a reasonably good run here. Not that the Me 262 isn't a very worthy and dangerous adversary against the criteria for this contest, because it is (and I think we should reasonably expect the polling to be close; but then, I've been wrong before and may be again).
        Nevertheless IMO, the real significance/influence factor of the Me 262 tends to be a bit over-rated anyway; by some at least. Not saying it isn't very substantial indeed; but some still get a bit carried away IMO.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #5
          The Me 262 was one of several first generation jet fighters that appeared at the same time:

          He 280, P-59, Meteor, Me 262.

          While it was potentially the most affective of that bunch it is not some technological tour de force upending aircraft technology. If anything, its one contribution is the use of swept wings and in part (there were other German aircraft with swept wings in 1944 - 45 that show the technology too) showing their value.
          It's operational service life lasted about a year, with small numbers in use. Had Germany not been desperate for weapons to turn the tide of the war in 1943 -44 it is likely the Me 262 would have languished as a prototype because of the crappy engines available for it.

          The P-51 showcases technology advances too. It is the first production aircraft using a laminar flow wing. Aircraft manufacturers in Germany, Britain, and the US had tried and would continue to try to mass produce such a wing unsuccessfully into 1944 - 45. For longevity, the P-51 served into the 1960's with the final "active duty" ones (6 Cavalier II Mustangs) being phased out of service by Indonesia in 1976 and the Philippines in the early 1980's.

          The original NA 73 was a competitor with the Curtiss XP-46 to design a "European" fighter replacement for the P-40. That is why NAA could produce a prototype so quickly. They put a rabbit in the hat before pulling it out...

          As previously pointed out, the Mustang's wings and tail assembly was used with a new fuselage to produce the "Jet Mustang" / FJ Fury post WW 2, sort of in the same way Supermarine mated the Spiteful's wings onto a similar fuselage to produce the Attacker.

          In terms of service use, longevity in service, and diversity of use, the Mustang beats the Me 262 hands down.

          Comment


          • #6
            I did not vote for either of these guys last round. The Me 262 has the looks and seems very impressive with its innovations. The problem is keeping the jet engines working. I went with the design that had less impressive innovation, but had outstanding performance. All the P 51 need do is circle the airfield until the Me 262 had to land and the Swallow was toast!

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #7
              I voted P-51 but wow this was close because the 262 was well beyond it's years and created the jet age. However the p-51 had a much greater impact. If the war went longer or the 262 was introduced earlier perhaps my vote changes. It sure does look cool too!
              Few men are killed by bayonets, but many are scared by them. Having the bayonet fixed makes our men want to close. Only the threat to close will defeat a determined enemy.

              Comment


              • #8
                P-51. It was the factor that swung the bombing campaign around in WWII and assured air superiority over Germany. It was also useful and effective in the Korean War, though I sure wish they had kept some p-47s around for ground support in that one. /soapbox

                Susie
                Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                And battles long ago:
                -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Tough call. I went with the 262 because it heralded a major change in aviation. Almost went with Mustang because of the influence it had on the outcome of the air war in Europe, but in the big picture I felt that the Me262 was more important to the history of aviation.
                  If there are no dogs in Heaven, then I want to go where they went when they died-Will Rogers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I went for the Me262 for the simple reason that it heralded the future of air warfare. I will nail my colours to the mast and state now that if the Me262 wins through, I shall vote for it regardless of what aircraft wins in the other poll.

                    Paul
                    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                    All human ills he can subdue,
                    Or with a bauble or medal
                    Can win mans heart for you;
                    And many a blessing know to stew
                    To make a megloamaniac bright;
                    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                    The Pixie is a little shite.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Mustang, a war-winning aircraft: that's REAL influence.
                      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                      Samuel Johnson.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        262 over the 51, probably a mistake.
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No fighter aircraft had more influence than the Messerschmitt Me-262. Both the MiG-15 and the F-86 drew heavily from it, and therefore they, their successors, and by extension all modern fighter aircraft today can be called its descendants.

                          The Cold War was fought on both sides using aircraft that shared a common, German ancestor!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I had to go jet.
                            you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                            CPO Mzinyati

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                              No fighter aircraft had more influence than the Messerschmitt Me-262. Both the MiG-15 and the F-86 drew heavily from it, and therefore they, their successors, and by extension all modern fighter aircraft today can be called its descendants.

                              The Cold War was fought on both sides using aircraft that shared a common, German ancestor!
                              Actually, other than swept wing research, neither the MiG nor the Sabre drew any influence from the Me 262.

                              For example: The Sabre used powered controls derived from Lockheed research. The gun sight was a Hughes development. The engine was British derived or of US origin. The ducting and such derived from NACA data. The cockpit layout and canopy design from the P-51.

                              The MiG is the same way. The Russians used very little to nothing from the Me 262 design to build their fighter.

                              If you look at other developments concurrent with the Me 262, like the DeHaviland Vampire, Bell's P-59 and P-83, Lockheed's P-80, Gloster's Meteor, etc., they owe next to nothing or nothing to the German design.

                              So, claiming that the Me 262 was somehow some major influence on jet development is completely misplaced. It was one design among many and had a lot of serious flaws. The one thing it did provide was the swept wing. But, Henkel in later designs of the He 162 put in sweep, Junkers experimented with forward sweep on the Ju 287. So, even in that area it's influence was not sweeping (no pun intended.)

                              Comment

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