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Rnd 6 - Supermarine Spitfire (Britain) vs Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (Germany)

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  • Rnd 6 - Supermarine Spitfire (Britain) vs Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (Germany)

    Round 6 (Semi-Final): Supermarine Spitfire (Britain) vs Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (Germany)


    Supermarine Spitfire
    In the European theatre the Spitfire managed for most of the war to maintain either parity or superiority against its principal opponents; the main exception being a period of almost a year during 1941/42, when the German Fw 190 was clearly superior to the Spitfire Mk. V (the current model at that time) in most important aspects. The performance gap was closed by the introduction of the Spitfire Mk. IX in June 1942, with continuous improvements and successive marks keeping the Spitfire at parity or better for the remainder of the war. A significant upgrade was the introduction of the considerably more powerful Rolls Royce Griffon engine which powered some of the later marks and helped the British fighter to continue to remain highly competitive. However, physical attributes and effective design aside, perhaps one of the most important things about the Spitfire was what it came to stand for; to the Allied side in general but particularly to the peoples of the British Commonwealth/Empire. To many, it became a symbol of freedom in their struggle against tyranny; its very existence - to say nothing of its presence - boosting morale. This powerful sentiment has carried down the generations to the present day. To be sure, some other fighters have been inspirational to their people; but perhaps none in quite the same way as this Supermarine design which "made its mark" during the darkest days of the War and in particular, during the Battle of Britain.

    Focke-Wulf Fw 190
    From about 1942, the Bf 109 and the Fw 190 together became the backbone of the German fighter force. The twin-row BMW 801 radial engine that powered the Fw 190A series enabled the aircraft to lift larger loads than the Bf 109, allowing its use as a day fighter, fighter-bomber, ground-attack aircraft and, to a lesser degree, night fighter. The Fw 190A started flying operationally over France in August 1941 and within a fairly short time had its first clashes with RAF Spitfires. At this point, the latest model of the Spitfire in general use was the Mk. V. The 190 quickly proved superior in all but turn radius to the Spitfire V, especially at low and medium altitudes. The 190 maintained its superiority over Allied fighters until the introduction of the improved Spitfire Mk. IX in July 1942. In November/December 1942, the Fw 190 made its air combat debut on the Eastern Front, being successful both in air-to-air and ground attack operations.
    The Fw 190A series' performance decreased at high altitudes (usually 6,000 m (20,000 ft) and above), which reduced its effectiveness as a high-altitude interceptor, but this problem was addressed with the introduction of the Fw 190D from about September 1944, which was powered by the Junkers Jumo 213 inline engine. It is readily distinguishable from the radial-engined A series by its longer nose. The Fw 190D was a very worthy opponent for late-war Allied fighters. Taken overall and given the excellent performance and very successful career of the Fw 190, as well as the very large numbers produced, it would rightfully be considered one of the most important fighters to serve during WW2.

    Will you find yourself leaning towards the Fw 190, or to the Spitfire in this match?

    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the Final!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?




    Candidate #53 - Supermarine Spitfire (Britain)

    Full Service From (approx) – 1938
    Quantity produced - 20,351
    User Nations - Britain and many other countries (See Wiki link below)

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire












    Candidate #63 - Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (Germany)

    Full Service From (approx) – 1941
    Quantity produced - 20,051
    User Nations - Germany, Czechoslovakia, France, Hungary, Romania, Turkey

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190

    Fw 190A



    Fw 190D





    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    98
    Supermarine Spitfire (Britain)
    71.43%
    70
    Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (Germany)
    28.57%
    28

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 16 May 15, 07:06.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    This one is truly tough for me. The significance of the Spit is known to any Brit and to anyone that knows anything about the war. It was flown by 36 nations (including Brtain) which is tremendously significant and influential as well. The Fw-190 was a superb aircraft, of this there is no doubt. It is clearly the superior German fighter plane of WWII and if we were evaluating on a Best rating it would clearly garner a lot of points. It was clearly influential for Germany but Germany lost the war so I can not easily weigh this influence.
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

    Comment


    • #3
      The FW 190 has the edge in technological influence over the Spitfire by a good margin.
      It introduced a number of technologies that were widely adopted by other aircraft manufacturers including: The engine cooling system, annular oil cooler in the cowling, automatic engine controls, and push rod and bell crank control linkages. The adaptability to different engines is also a big plus in this area.
      The FW 190 also proved far more versatile in the roles it could successfully operate in: Fighter bomber (something the Spitfire never excelled at), night fighter, and heavy bomber buster. Had Germany had an aircraft carrier I think it would have made a far superior carrier fighter to the Seafire.

      On the other hand, the Spitfire has tremendous significance in terms of service. That record doesn't need recounting here.

      Comment


      • #4
        I did not vote for either of these aircraft in the last round. While the Spit was produced for more years, the FW 190 was a better design that was easier to fly. I went Focke Wulf.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          The Spit. Not only was it a frontline fighter during *all* of WWII, but it was instrumental in winning the Battle of Britain, the first Allied success and a straw in the wind that kept many in the USA from writing Britain off. (Shame on you, Charles Lindbergh!)

          Susie
          Will no one tell me what she sings?--
          Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
          For old, unhappy, far-off things,
          And battles long ago:
          -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

          Comment


          • #6
            Of course I voted the Spitfire. From the Merlin 61 Mk VIII to the Griffon MkXIV, the Fw 190A & D was second best in its fighter roll ( fighter bomber is irrelevant, just as the Spitfire being superior in the PR roll is irrelevant too).

            Paul
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #7
              Voted Spit for all the wrong reasons, dammit!
              My worst jump story:
              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
              No lie.

              ~
              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

              Comment


              • #8
                I voted spitfire because of it's influence in the war and specifically stopping the German western advance. As stated above the 190 is probably a better fighter but didn't have the same impact as the spitfire. Perhaps the Battle of Britain could have been won with the hurricane and no fighter could've stopped the US and RAF bombings in Germany but the outcomes certainly influenced my vote.

                Spitfire v P-51 will be the fight of the century!
                Few men are killed by bayonets, but many are scared by them. Having the bayonet fixed makes our men want to close. Only the threat to close will defeat a determined enemy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shogun View Post

                  Spitfire v P-51 will be the fight of the century!
                  I dunno, the 262 has a chance to sneak through.
                  "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                  Ernest Hemingway.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shogun View Post
                    Spitfire v P-51 will be the fight of the century!
                    Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
                    I dunno, the 262 has a chance to sneak through.
                    Based on the current situation with the Me 262 just a whisker ahead in the polls, maybe Spitfire vs Me 262 is slightly more likely?
                    However, with nearly two weeks of voting left and a lot more members still to vote, I guess it could easily go either way.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shogun View Post
                      I voted spitfire because of it's influence in the war and specifically stopping the German western advance. As stated above the 190 is probably a better fighter but didn't have the same impact as the spitfire. Perhaps the Battle of Britain could have been won with the hurricane and no fighter could've stopped the US and RAF bombings in Germany but the outcomes certainly influenced my vote.

                      Spitfire v P-51 will be the fight of the century!
                      The Spitfire was only second best when the 190 made its debut. As soon as the Merlin 61 and MkVIII /IX came along in 1942, the 190 was second best. When the Mk XIV came along in 1943, It was game over for all marks of 190's.

                      Paul
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                        I did not vote for either of these aircraft in the last round. While the Spit was produced for more years, the FW 190 was a better design that was easier to fly. I went Focke Wulf.

                        Pruitt
                        In what way was the Fw190 easier to fly?

                        Better design? The Spitfire went through development throughout it's operational life. A 1936 fighter that out performed the 190, 'apart from a few months of 1941/42' a significance not equalled by any other allied or axis aircraft. It's influence is what was written about the Spitfire by those allies that flew it and those axis that flew against it, and most of all, not forgetting its significance and influence as a symbol of resistance and victory for the allies.

                        Paul
                        Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 16 May 15, 22:54.
                        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                        All human ills he can subdue,
                        Or with a bauble or medal
                        Can win mans heart for you;
                        And many a blessing know to stew
                        To make a megloamaniac bright;
                        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                        The Pixie is a little shite.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Paul, the Spitfire had a narrow undercarriage that could fold during landings. The Cockpit was crowded and the vision from the cockpit was limited. The Hurricane was easier for a new pilot to fly. If you put a fairly new pilot in a Spitfire the plane could kill him.

                          The FW 190 had a widespread undercarriage that did not threaten to collapse. The vision from the cockpit was superb.

                          Please don't let me change your mind. I know you love the Spit.

                          Pruitt
                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                            Paul, the Spitfire had a narrow undercarriage that could fold during landings. The Cockpit was crowded and the vision from the cockpit was limited. The Hurricane was easier for a new pilot to fly. If you put a fairly new pilot in a Spitfire the plane could kill him.

                            The FW 190 had a widespread undercarriage that did not threaten to collapse. The vision from the cockpit was superb.

                            Please don't let me change your mind. I know you love the Spit.

                            Pruitt
                            Certainly, the Spitfire was more of a handful for the novice pilot especially, compared to the Hurricane. And it did have a relatively narrow-track undercarriage that made it a bit trickier and less suitable for rough strips. However, I wouldn't say that the Spit's undercart was significantly more prone to collapse. When properly locked-in to the down position I think it was pretty strong.

                            Also, I would not agree that the vision from the Fw 190 cockpit was all that much better all-around than that of the "standard" Spit with curved hood; at least, not until the "blown" canopy was fitted. By the same token, from 1944 increasing numbers of Spits were fitted with cut-down rear decking and bubble canopies that gave superior all-round vision than any version of the 190. In other words, the outcome of a comparison regarding visibility will vary considerably, depending on the exact model of Spit vs Fw, and what canopy they were fitted with.
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                              Paul, the Spitfire had a narrow undercarriage that could fold during landings.
                              Where the Spitfire undercarriage folded (other than on carriers) was due to pilot error, and was not worth considering.

                              The Cockpit was crowded and the vision from the cockpit was limited. The Hurricane was easier for a new pilot to fly. If you put a fairly new pilot in a Spitfire the plane could kill him.
                              Didn't stop the Spitfire from out performing the FW190 though did it!

                              So where in your data did the Spitfire have the propensity to kill 'fairly new pilots'

                              The FW 190 had a widespread undercarriage that did not threaten to collapse. The vision from the cockpit was superb.
                              As I said, It still didn't prevent the Spitfire from out performing the 190

                              The Spitfire out performed the 190 because the of the simple fact that the Spitfire was better to fly and a better fighter. The Fw 190 could have had a Pilkington, 'clear as crystal' bubble canopy and titanium under cart, It was still not as good where it mattered, in the air!

                              Paul
                              Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 17 May 15, 02:46.
                              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                              All human ills he can subdue,
                              Or with a bauble or medal
                              Can win mans heart for you;
                              And many a blessing know to stew
                              To make a megloamaniac bright;
                              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                              The Pixie is a little shite.

                              Comment

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