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  • Snap Poll - Semi-Final pairings

    Looking back over the tournament so far and with the benefit of hindsight, I think I could have called it better than I did with some of the pairings from Round 2 onwards. (The Round 1 pairings were purely random, if you recall).

    Not that I think I did a really bad job as such; just that I reckon it could have been better in a few places. In mitigation, I did significantly underestimate or over-estimate how the voting would unfold for some of the candidates, when I set those pairings up. That was a big part of it. I think it's fairly self-evident which ones they were, so no need to expand on that.

    I have set up this 24-hour "snap poll" so that you guys can decide which set of pairings we'll use out of the three shown.

    Round 6 - the Semi-Final - can be opened shortly after this poll closes. It won't take me too long to make the necessary adjustments.

    Please note 3 very important points:

    (1) The combinations you are voting on are obviously based on the scores so far. With the closing of Round 5 only a matter of hours away, the leading candidates in each match are now considered to be near certain winners. If there is an unexpected reversal in any of the 4 polls, then the appropriate adjustments (in other words, substitutions) will be made by me. It now seems very unlikely that this will be necessary, though.

    (2) For the purpose of eligibility to participate in this snap poll, I will only count votes from members who have participated in at least two of the five rounds we've run so far. If anyone is unsure whether or not they have voted in at least two rounds, please PM me.

    (3) There is no obligation to vote in this snap poll; and whether or not members choose to vote in it will have absolutely no effect - either positive or negative - on their eligibility for the campaign ribbon. Eligibility for the ribbon will be based on the criteria already set up from the beginning; so nobody is moving any goalposts as far as the ribbon is concerned.


    Unless it's necessary to break a tie, I shall abstain from voting.
    I await your collective verdict on these pairings.
    36
    Spitfire vs Mustang and Fw 190 vs Me 262
    19.44%
    7
    Spitfire vs Fw 190 and Mustang vs Me 262
    47.22%
    17
    Spitfire vs Me 262 and Fw 190 vs Mustang
    33.33%
    12

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 15 May 15, 05:59.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    It seems we got an World War II all-star finalist team.
    It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

    Косово је Србија!
    Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

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    Armored Brigade Facebook page

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    • #3
      Definitely the second one.
      "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
      Ernest Hemingway.

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      • #4
        The second choice is the obvious one. I wish, though, that the P-47 had been one of the finalists. That and the F6F were, in my very humble opinion, very significant/influential fighters. Consider that the Wildcat was the fighter that 'won the Pacific' and the Jug was the plane that held European air superiority until the Mustang was proven. Add to that the fact that both aircraft were very similar in design, armament and armor. Just sayin'
        ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
        IN MARE IN COELO

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        • #5
          The second one. This pairs fighters who were there for most of WW2 and two that were relatively late.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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          • #6
            I'm tempted to vote based on the pairing I want for the final round. Is that right?
            John

            Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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            • #7
              We should do the last so the the spit goes up against the 'tang.
              Credo quia absurdum.


              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
                It seems we got an World War II all-star finalist team.
                Yep. Speaking for myself, I would have liked to see a Semi-Final with one 1st Word War plane, two 2nd World War and one "modern" jet.


                Originally posted by JBark View Post
                I'm tempted to vote based on the pairing I want for the final round. Is that right?
                There's no "right" or "wrong" here. Vote for whatever you think is most reasonable and/or most likely to put the two planes you believe are most worthy out of these four, into the final.


                Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                We should do the last so the the spit goes up against the 'tang.
                I guess that would be the preferred option for those members who believe (a) that both the P-51 and the Spitfire would almost certainly win in the Semi-Final; and (b) that the P-51 and the Spitfire are the two most worthy aircraft out of those four to be in the Final.
                On the other hand, if we were totally focused on making sure the Spitfire and P-51 go toe-to-toe, then I suppose the only way to guarantee that happening is for the majority of members to vote for option 1.

                Last edited by panther3485; 15 May 15, 12:52.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well I for one lugie at the spit for not being significant. Sure it had its roll, but the 'tang still competes today. How many other fighters from granddads day can do that.

                  Hell some banana republics still fly them...
                  Credo quia absurdum.


                  Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                    " ... but the 'tang still competes today. How many other fighters from granddads day can do that. ... "
                    We've already had this conversation quite recently and I thought we'd exhausted the subject. I pointed out that the use of the P-51 in post-war civilian races was totally irrelevant to its comparative merits vis-a-vis other WW2 fighters; and you conceded that point.

                    ... or was the whole of your post saying - in a back-handed sort of way - that the real reason you'd advocate option 3 is that you see it as most probably giving the Spitifre the least chance of making the Semi-Final?

                    Not saying that's right or wrong because it's neither; and besides I previously thought it would be a 50/50 chance the Spitfire might fall to the 109 back in Round 4; but if you were really keen to make sure we have a Spit vs Mustang match at some stage, wouldn't you be going for option 1? The chances of getting such a match in the Final with option 3 are obviously at least a little bit shaky, no?
                    Last edited by panther3485; 15 May 15, 14:11.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Second choice, definitely. Set up the Spit vs. the Mouse for the final round.

                      Susie
                      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                      And battles long ago:
                      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                        We've already had this conversation quite recently and I thought we'd exhausted the subject. I pointed out that the use of the P-51 in post-war civilian races was totally irrelevant to its comparative merits vis-a-vis other WW2 fighters; and you conceded that point.

                        ... or was the whole of your post saying - in a back-handed sort of way - that the real reason you'd advocate option 3 is that you see it as most probably giving the Spitifre the least chance of making the Semi-Final?

                        Not saying that's right or wrong because it's neither; and besides I previously thought it would be a 50/50 chance the Spitfire might fall to the 109 back in Round 4; but if you were really keen to make sure we have a Spit vs Mustang match at some stage, wouldn't you be going for option 1? The chances of getting such a match in the Final with option 3 are obviously at least a little bit shaky, no?
                        Sigh. I concede little. I feel that civilian races do prove which horse is a Thoroughbred and a game changer. Well I still esteem your comments and posts but for me its still the 'tang.

                        Btw do you notice the similarity between the f-16 and the p-51? Except for the wing its a copy...
                        Credo quia absurdum.


                        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really prefer choice #1 but that would bring howls whatever the outcome, so choice 2 is the obvious alternative.

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                          • #14


                            The one good usage of a spit. A beer cooler...
                            Credo quia absurdum.


                            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                              Sigh. I concede little.
                              Therefore, coming from a man who normally concedes little, when I said this:
                              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              At the end of the day, it still comes down to availability and price. Availability includes having enough of the type around to make the proposition truly viable over a worthwhile period of time. And even then, if somebody did purchase a Spitfire and modify it for racing it would prove nothing whatsoever about the relative values of any of those planes in their original role as WW2 fighters. That would be true regardless of whether or not the Spitfire won any races.

                              Post-WW2 civilian air racing is a totally different ballgame and it's completely irrelevant to our deliberations in these polls.
                              ... and you replied by saying this:
                              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                              "I'll concede that point. But I do love the sound and the smell of those old war beasts... "
                              ... that obviously means a great deal.


                              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                              I feel that civilian races do prove which horse is a Thoroughbred and a game changer.
                              As we have already covered before:
                              While civilian air races may prove something of the quality of a given airframe/engine combination in racing, they prove little to nothing about whether the aircraft in question was a "game changer" in war. Yes, the P-51 was a game-changer in WW2 but this was proven by its performance in war. The air racing thing, while noteworthy in itself, is just about completely irrelevant to wartime performance of an aircraft in combat.

                              This is what you have already conceded.


                              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                              Well I still esteem your comments and posts but for me its still the 'tang.
                              ... and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
                              I'm sure most members have their favoured candidate in mind for Most Significant/Influential and I'm equally sure there's a substantial number of folks who do see the Mustang as being that most worthy of planes when measured against the criteria for this campaign.
                              At the same time however, I'm equally sure that if they think about it carefully and objectively, most can also see the irrelevance or near-irrelevance of post-war civilian air racing regardless of which aircraft they favour for this contest.


                              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                              Btw do you notice the similarity between the f-16 and the p-51? Except for the wing its a copy...
                              We were doing OK up to this part; but now you've almost completely lost me. I see no "similarity" between those two fighters except for some very basic and general points such as:
                              • They are both American
                              • They are both single-seat fighters
                              • They are both single-engine
                              • They are both outstanding!

                              ... but if you're referring to some kind of "family resemblance" or something of that kind, you might have to help me there.
                              Last edited by panther3485; 15 May 15, 20:33.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment

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