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Rnd 5 - North American P-51 Mustang (USA) vs McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II (USA)

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  • #16
    I went with the Mustang, but it was not an easy choice. I wish I had voted Phantom II. But what if I had voted Phantom? Would I wish I voted for the Mustang?
    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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    • #17
      I would say the Phantom for it's service length and number of air forces that flew it.

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      • #18
        This was tough for me but the more I thought about it, the more the F-4 seemed the better candidate for me. the P-51 definitely deserves respect and I give it respect; it did work. But it was also pretty much the end of an era. The F-4 fits the criteria a bit better I think. It also has service length.
        "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

        --Hávamál

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        • #19
          I was thinking Phantom, but it does not seem to have been as versatile or the unqualified success in the face of competent opposition that the Mustang was.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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          • #20
            Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
            I was thinking Phantom, but it does not seem to have been as versatile or the unqualified success in the face of competent opposition that the Mustang was.
            I think that Col Robin Olds might disagree with you on the competency of the NVAF.
            "A foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse." Ulysses S. Grant

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            • #21
              My vote: Mustang.

              This time I went with the majority.
              Frankly, I had little hesitation with my vote for the P-51. IMO it's one of a very small numbers of fighters in history that has truly acquired the status of a legend, in addition to being instrumental in gaining Allied air superiority over Germany through the closing year of WW2.
              In my book, being instrumental in either of the two World Wars carries more weight than being instrumental in any regional conflict.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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              • #22
                To not have the best fighter of the last great fighter war and arguably the most important fighter of that war in the semis is unacceptable. Once again I will qualify my vote as being for the most historically significant. Given that, it has to be for the Mustang.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
                  This is a tough one. We all know what the P51 brings to the table. And fame carries it's own significance.

                  But the F-4 might win this matchup for me. It's a big airframe, with room for updated electronics and avionics. An updated F-4 would be quite deadly, 50 years after she arrived. In other words, it could theoretically do well today if updated.

                  The F-4 pointed to the future. The P-51, despite it's innovations, was the end of a fine line.

                  At the same time, this is the Mustang we are talking about. There isn't a car named after the F-4. I don't recall a Russian version of Goering commenting on F-4s flying overhead.

                  Significance and influence. On who or what? Future designs, conflicts, history, or kids building 1/48 Mustangs and Spitfires bought with their paper route money?
                  Try RR Phantom
                  The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dutched View Post
                    Try RR Phantom
                    Well, the RAF Phantom did have RR engines...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Well, the RAF Phantom did have RR engines...
                      I was referring to their car, but you are right.
                      The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        Well, the RAF Phantom did have RR engines...

                        Originally posted by dutched View Post
                        I was referring to their car, but you are right.
                        And so did the Mustang, that without which, it would have been just another 'though capable' American inline piston-engined fighter-bomber.

                        Phantom 4


                        Phantom 1 (1925)



                        Mustang 1A
                        (Without a licenced built Rolls-Royce engine)


                        Mustang (1964)


                        Paul
                        Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 14 May 15, 00:03.
                        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                        All human ills he can subdue,
                        Or with a bauble or medal
                        Can win mans heart for you;
                        And many a blessing know to stew
                        To make a megloamaniac bright;
                        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                        The Pixie is a little shite.

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                        • #27
                          Some Mustang variants from a bit later on...

                          The Piper PA 84 Enforcer:



                          Cram a turboprop on a Mustang and turn it into a bomb truck ground attack plane

                          Try it out with a couple of Ford manufactured Argus pulse jets...



                          Stuff a couple of small Marquard 20" dia ramjets on the wingtips...



                          Stick the wings and tail on a new fuselage and get the FJ Fury...

                          Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 14 May 15, 01:51.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                            To not have the best fighter of the last great fighter war and arguably the most important fighter of that war in the semis is unacceptable. Once again I will qualify my vote as being for the most historically significant. Given that, it has to be for the Mustang.
                            The Mustang was the best fighter of WW2 ?
                            Most historically significant fighter of WW2 ?

                            It's an opinion, not fact .

                            The Mustang was very late contender in WW2 in its Merlin guise. More significant were Fw 190's, Spitfires and of course Me109's that were built in larger numbers and available for years before Merlin Mustangs saw service.

                            The Mustang helped the bombers get through. Strategic bombing campaign probably shortened the war by 3 months. Compare that to the Me109 that gave the Germans total air superiority up to the BoB, or the Fw190 that drove the Spitfire (V) from France until the IX was available, and the Mustang can be seen as the capable plane it was but certainly not the most significant. It wasn't even the most significant US fighter, that goes to the Wildcat, which gave the US air superiority in the PTO against veteran pilots.

                            Personally I believe the Wildcat as the most significant fighter of WW2 .
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                            • #29
                              ALL PARTICIPATING MEMBERS: URGENT NOTICE!

                              Hi everyone,

                              I am running a 24-hour snap-poll among these threads, exclusively for the participating members of this campaign. (The minimum requirement is that you need to have voted in at least two Rounds so far.)

                              The purpose of the poll is to allow you guys to decide the pairings for the next Round, which will be the Semi-Final.

                              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...86#post3036086

                              Last edited by panther3485; 15 May 15, 05:18.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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