Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rnd 5 - Sopwith Camel (Britain) vs Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (Germany)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    190 for me,the Camel was a beast to fly,it killed as many allied pilots as it did enemy........................Not really but it did kill hundreds in accidents that other types weren't prone to.

    You know you have a good plane on your hands when the RAF enemy coin names like "Butcher Bird" for it.

    Its armament was incredible too,4 x 20mm cannons and 2 x 13mm MGs.
    This was in 41,devastating.

    Comment


    • #17
      Pure, nonargumentative disinterested query: if the FW-190 was all that, how come pilots like Galland and Hartmann flew ME-109s till the end of the war?

      Susie, who calls all German aircraft "targets"
      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
      And battles long ago:
      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
        Pure, nonargumentative disinterested query: if the FW-190 was all that, how come pilots like Galland and Hartmann flew ME-109s till the end of the war?

        Susie, who calls all German aircraft "targets"
        Galland ended in an Me-262.

        Hartmann was staying with what he knew and understood how to use best, which suited his style; he was careful.
        Which could explain how he lived through the war.
        The final K-version was a monster, with a top speed of 450mph.
        Last edited by The Exorcist; 07 May 15, 20:33.
        "Why is the Rum gone?"

        -Captain Jack

        Comment


        • #19
          I asked myself the same question...

          I think that there are several reasons.
          1. he was trained on a Me-109 and was assigned to a Me-109 JG
          2. after 100 sorties on the Me-109 he had scored 7 kills. That gives an idea how long it took to get used to a machine...
          3. he was never trained on the Fw-190. He was never assigned to the Reichsverteidigung.
          One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

          Comment


          • #20
            My vote: Sopwith Camel.

            The Camel was one of the most important fighters of WW1, with an outstanding combat record as well as being the "progenitor" of the Snipe.
            In most of the English-speaking world I would reckon, for anyone with even a small idea about the history and machines of air warfare, "Sopwith Camel" is at least as much a household name as "Fw 190", if not more so.

            I might still have voted for the Wurger; however, what clinched my decision was the current status of this poll which (just prior to my own vote) had the Fw 190 at 55 and the Camel at 24.

            Perhaps the 190 does deserve its win; but I felt that the Camel should have gotten rather more than 24 votes here. So call this a "sympathy vote" if you like.
            Last edited by panther3485; 08 May 15, 01:39.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #21
              Neither of these planes belongs in the semis. How the 190 made it further than the 109 is perplexing! Talk about an easy draw. What is the opposite of the "group of death"? No offense, Panther. But the matchup is what it is. Since it looks like the Eindecker will not make it, I am going to throw a vote to the only plane left that can represent all the fighters from the first war with fighters.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                "Neither of these planes belongs in the semis. ... "
                Your opinion is duly noted.


                Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                " ... How the 190 made it further than the 109 is perplexing! Talk about an easy draw. ... "
                Seems quite simple to me. It's a combination of (a) the aircraft chosen for the contest; (b) the structure and pairings for each Round; and (c) what planes the majority of participating members voted for in each match, in each successive Round.

                Factor (a) was reached by small-group consensus, in a separate pre-poll thread where a number of interested members helped me to choose the line-up of 128 candidates.

                Factor (b) was largely up to me; and was arguably the one area where I could make a significant difference. I started out with random pairings, using friends and family members to draw candidate numbers out of a cooler bag. That seemed fine to begin with but part-way into this campaign, when serious potential drawbacks of that method were brought to my attention, I decided to configure the pairings myself. This brings us to the next factor:

                Factor (c) was and still is pretty much entirely out of my hands. In order to apply reasonable "steering" under factor (b), I needed to try to predict how members would be most likely to vote. In a good number of cases, I managed to estimate outcomes correctly. In a significant number of instances I got it wrong. In a few, I was miles off.

                Juggle those variables and IMO it's not at all hard to see how the Bf 109 was eliminated in the last Round but the Fw 190 made it through. So now, here's my question for you:

                If the Bf 109 and Fw 190 had been paired against each other in the last Round, what do you think the outcome would have been? Is it necessarily a foregone conclusion that the 109 would have won? You might feel sure of the answer but based on my observations of the tournament up to this point, I am very far from certain.


                Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                " ... What is the opposite of the "group of death"? ... "
                Not sure what you mean by this.


                Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                " ... No offense, Panther. ... "
                None taken.
                Last edited by panther3485; 08 May 15, 21:11.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Panther, I did not expect an explanation and feel bad that you went to some effort to address my tongue in cheek musings. My "group of death" reference was a World Cup reference. In any tournament, despite the best efforts of the organizer(s), one bracket will appear to be really hard and conversely one will appear to be easy for the team (in this case plane) that emerges. It's just a perception people have. I am not going to go back and see if the path for the 190 was easy. There is no point to that. Your seeding was a remarkable effort and I bow before it. I have not given any thought as to how I would have done it differently (other than including the Thud ). I am content with letting you do all the work and me enjoying the result.

                  Everything you said is well defended except the Me109 vs. FW 190 conjecture. I understand that some of the results have been unpredictable, but I would be stunned if the 109 did not prevail in that matchup. If the 190 were to win then my use of historical significance would surely be outside the mainstream. We'll never know, but I think if you swap their round 4 matchups, the 190 almost certainly loses to the Spit and the 109 likely beats the Zero. This puts the 109 in the 4th round where in my opinion it belonged. Just a what-if. Again no offense meant.

                  BTW I notice you and I seem sympatico as to how to judge the matchups.

                  Enjoyed the exchange. Thanks for being respectful.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                    "Panther, I did not expect an explanation and feel bad that you went to some effort to address my tongue in cheek musings. ... "
                    Please don't be the slightest bit uncomfortable about this. Although I was answering your post, I did so with the intent to address the items you raised for the benefit of all members who might be interested. If I seem to err on the side of being "too intense" in my response to such questions, that's a big part of the reason. I answer not just for the person who posted but also for the benefit of anyone else who may be thinking along similar lines or pondering the same questions. And some of those guys might not be as tongue-in-cheek about it as you are.
                    The remainder of my zeal is a combination of my enthusiasm for the subject and my general nature as a person, as I'm inclined to be rather pedantic at times. In any case, certainly nothing for you to feel bad about.

                    Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                    " ... My "group of death" reference was a World Cup reference. In any tournament, despite the best efforts of the organizer(s), one bracket will appear to be really hard and conversely one will appear to be easy for the team (in this case plane) that emerges. It's just a perception people have. ... "
                    OK, gotcha now.


                    Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                    " ... <snip> Everything you said is well defended except the Me109 vs. FW 190 conjecture. I understand that some of the results have been unpredictable, but I would be stunned if the 109 did not prevail in that matchup. If the 190 were to win then my use of historical significance would surely be outside the mainstream. ... "
                    That's pretty much my point though. I've seen enough occasions in polls such as this, where the candidate I honestly thought should prevail, did not prevail. You may well be confident that the 109 would triumph in such a match here at ACG. I do not share that level of confidence. This does not mean I personally disagree with your position. As I see it, we might expect the Bf 109 to win but that by no means anywhere near guaratees that it would, IMO. As you say, we'll never know but I simply cannot feel as confident about such a match as you do.


                    Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                    " ... <snip> I think if you swap their round 4 matchups, the 190 almost certainly loses to the Spit and the 109 likely beats the Zero. This puts the 109 in the 4th round where in my opinion it belonged. Just a what-if. ... "
                    I'm guessing you mean it puts the 109 into the 5th Round and yes, with those matches you have mentioned I agree that the outcomes you've shown are the most likely ones.
                    Thing is, I didn't think the outcome of Spitfire vs 109 would come out so clearly in favour of the Spitfire. Certainly, I thought the Spitfire would be a very tough opponent for the 109 but I also thought the 109 would be a very tough opponent for the Spitfire, despite the fact that my own personal leaning was somewhat in favour of the Spitfire mainly for psychological/morale reasons. To my perception of likely outcomes before that match began, it seemed likely to be as close to 50/50 as you'd get and that's what I wanted it to be: A nail-biting and suspenseful contest. I was genuinely shocked at the final outcome. 65 votes to 28 in favour of the Spitfire! No way, IMO, should there have been anything like that kind of gap!

                    I have a lot of admiration and affection for the Sptifire; and IMO it was certainly one of the top ten greatest and most significant/influential fighters among all the participant nations of WW2. Possibly even in the top half-dozen. However, I try very hard not to let this blur my objectivity. Nevertheless, I greatly underestimated just how potent the image and reputation of the Spitfire remains in the minds of so many; and to me, this was especially surprising in a forum with such a high percentage of members who are not from Britain or any of the Commonwealth nations. I really did think the 109 would poll neck-and-neck with the Spitfire right through to the end of that Round.

                    With the benefit of hindsight, might I have configured the matches as you have suggested? Yes, I think it's quite possible I would. But then, Spitfire vs 109 would have been a very tempting match for the next Round; the only difference being the "survival" of the 109 for one more round; but the same final outcome.


                    Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                    " ... Again no offense meant. ... "
                    And again, none taken. All constructive criticism is welcome. It might be too late for these polls but it could be helpful in future polls. We all live and learn.


                    Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                    " ... BTW I notice you and I seem sympatico as to how to judge the matchups.

                    Enjoyed the exchange. Thanks for being respectful."
                    Yes, we do seem to think alike on many points if not all.
                    Thanks to you also.
                    Last edited by panther3485; 09 May 15, 00:45.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                      Neither of these planes belongs in the semis. How the 190 made it further than the 109 is perplexing! Talk about an easy draw. What is the opposite of the "group of death"? No offense, Panther. But the matchup is what it is. Since it looks like the Eindecker will not make it, I am going to throw a vote to the only plane left that can represent all the fighters from the first war with fighters.
                      To a certain extend I can understand your misgivings. However the handing characteristics of the Me 109 progressively declined after the F model. Looking at the Fw 190 it was the other way around. The Me 109 is as iconic as the Spitfire, however where the Spitfire gained the Me 109 lost. The simple reason that the 109 stayed in production so long is, that production wise, it is easier to continue with a line than to set up a new one. One should consider that the reason for being of the Fw 190 was that it on conception did not make any demands on the DB inverted V engine production largely reserved for the 109, making exclusively use of BMW radials instead until the advent of the Jumo powered D series. As good as the Me 109 was the Fw 190 was, given half a chance, a more capable successor.
                      The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dutched View Post
                        To a certain extend I can understand your misgivings. However the handing characteristics of the Me 109 progressively declined after the F model. Looking at the Fw 190 it was the other way around. The Me 109 is as iconic as the Spitfire, however where the Spitfire gained the Me 109 lost. The simple reason that the 109 stayed in production so long is, that production wise, it is easier to continue with a line than to set up a new one. One should consider that the reason for being of the Fw 190 was that it on conception did not make any demands on the DB inverted V engine production largely reserved for the 109, making exclusively use of BMW radials instead until the advent of the Jumo powered D series. As good as the Me 109 was the Fw 190 was, given half a chance, a more capable successor.
                        Once again I must emphasize that each person is able to interpret for himself what significant/influential means. I have chosen to vote based on historical significance. I envy those who can declaim on models and technology, but I am more versed in aviation history. I truly do not care about what happened with the later models of the 109. What I care about is the 109 was the fighter that helped the Germans conquer most of Europe. To me, that makes it more significant/influential than the fighter that did a decent job slowing the reconquest.

                        Of course the 190 was superior. Successors should be, right?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                          Once again I must emphasize that each person is able to interpret for himself what significant/influential means. I have chosen to vote based on historical significance. I envy those who can declaim on models and technology, but I am more versed in aviation history. I truly do not care about what happened with the later models of the 109. What I care about is the 109 was the fighter that helped the Germans conquer most of Europe. To me, that makes it more significant/influential than the fighter that did a decent job slowing the reconquest.

                          Of course the 190 was superior. Successors should be, right?
                          You be likely glad to know that in my humble opinion the Spit still has more than a fair chance in the way of design progression.
                          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dutched View Post
                            You be likely glad to know that in my humble opinion the Spit still has more than a fair chance in the way of design progression.
                            Uh, yeah, sure. If you say so.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              ALL PARTICIPATING MEMBERS: URGENT NOTICE!

                              Hi everyone,

                              I am running a 24-hour snap-poll among these threads, exclusively for the participating members of this campaign. (The minimum requirement is that you need to have voted in at least two Rounds so far.)

                              The purpose of the poll is to allow you guys to decide the pairings for the next Round, which will be the Semi-Final.

                              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...86#post3036086

                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Duly noted (and voted)

                                Susie
                                Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                                Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                                For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                                And battles long ago:
                                -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X