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Rnd 5 - Fokker Eindecker (Germany) vs Supermarine Spitfire (Britain)

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I think you forgot the P-51 Mustang.
    He can't include the Mustang because it was powered by? I'll give you a clue: The beating heart of the S------e was the M----n, which made the mustang what it was, not its original Allison that just couldn't hack it above 20'000ft

    Someone tippy-tapped this:

    The Hurricane and the emergency Miles M 20 could have done the job.
    I would have loved to have seen how those Miles 20's (would have been too late for the Battle of Britain anyway!) and Hurricanes would have performed after engine upgrades post Battle of Britain

    Britain could have purchased more US aircraft too
    Planes that got giddy at over 20,000ft

    And as I have said before, German and allied pilots will tell you all that is needed to know about the spitfire. It even influenced 'spitfire snobbery' on behalf of the enemy.

    People on this thread talk a load of guff (including those who think that the 25pdr platform was for anti-tank purposes I digress.) With all the first hand accounts written in many memoirs, and the hundreds of technical and historical tomes on the subject, I'm sure that what has been posted by the ignorant person above, is easily discounted.

    Paul
    Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 11 May 15, 22:26.
    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
    All human ills he can subdue,
    Or with a bauble or medal
    Can win mans heart for you;
    And many a blessing know to stew
    To make a megloamaniac bright;
    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
    The Pixie is a little shite.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
      He can't include the Mustang because it was powered by? I'll give you a clue: The beating heart of the S------e was the M----n, which made the mustang what it was, not its original Allison that just couldn't hack it above 20'000ft
      I couldn't include it because it didn't exist in 1939.

      Someone tippy-tapped this:

      I would have loved to have seen how those Miles 20's (would have been too late for the Battle of Britain anyway!) and Hurricanes would have performed after engine upgrades post Battle of Britain
      They would have been replaced by other aircraft. So?


      Planes that got giddy at over 20,000ft
      The USAAF stuffed a Merlin in the P-40 too. The P-40F and L both had a Merlin. While it did nothing to improve the top speed, it did give the P-40 a good altitude performance to about 25,000 feet. These models of P-40 were exclusively used in the MTO.
      That is a great proof that it isn't the engine but the airframe that matters. Curtiss didn't get any speed or climb improvement out of the Merlin, which has the same horsepower as an Allison. All they got was better altitude performance.

      And as I have said before, German and allied pilots will tell you all that is needed to know about the spitfire. It even influenced 'spitfire snobbery' on behalf of the enemy.
      In most cases, after 1940, they'll say they rarely encountered it.


      People on this thread talk a load of guff (including those who think that the 25pdr platform was for anti-tank purposes I digress.) With all the first hand accounts written in many memoirs, and the hundreds of technical and historical tomes on the subject, I'm sure that what has been posted by the ignorant person above, is easily discounted.

      Paul
      Just as your own ignorance of WW 2 outside the ETO can be...
      Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 11 May 15, 22:57.

      Comment


      • Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
        The Immelmann Turn surprised many pilots and added to British losses but the mystique acquired by the Fokker was greater than its material effect.[29](My emphasis) German aircrews in other aircraft were encouraged to be more aggressive and the British restricting their flying far more than was warranted. During the winter of 19151916 the British tried to continue flying but losses caused by bad weather and the Fokkers led to changes in tactics. On 14 January RFC HQ issued orders that until better aircraft were delivered, long- and short-range reconnaissance aircraft must have three escorts flying in close formation. If contact with the escorts was lost, the reconnaissance must be cancelled as would photographic reconnaissance to any great distance beyond the front line. The new tactics of concentrating aircraft in time and space had the effect of reducing the size of the RFC when the demand for information by the army remained the same.[30]
        That in itself is a tremendous influence, and the fact that so few E-1s were responsible for all that increases the stature of the aircraft, not the other way around.

        Jeez.... I'm voting down the Spit next round, I don't even care anymore.
        "Why is the Rum gone?"

        -Captain Jack

        Comment


        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

          Just as your own ignorance of WW 2 outside the ETO can be...
          So you admit then that what you have posted about the subject of the Spitfire' is out of ignorance?

          And pray show me where I have posted anything outside the E.T.O which is wrong?

          I couldn't include it because it didn't exist in 1939
          Posting caveats now are we?

          In most cases, after 1940, they'll say they rarely encountered it
          How bloody stupid is that? Ignorance in the red zone. (almost as bad as said 25pdr anti-tank gun platform)

          Paul
          Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 11 May 15, 23:10.
          ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
          All human ills he can subdue,
          Or with a bauble or medal
          Can win mans heart for you;
          And many a blessing know to stew
          To make a megloamaniac bright;
          Give honour to the dainty Corse,
          The Pixie is a little shite.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
            That in itself is a tremendous influence, and the fact that so few E-1s were responsible for all that increases the stature of the aircraft, not the other way around.

            Jeez.... I'm voting down the Spit next round, I don't even care anymore.
            So I suppose you didn't notice this posted by JBark?

            Taken from wiki of aviation in WWI:
            "The number of actual Allied casualties involved was for various reasons very small compared with the intensive air fighting of 191718. The deployment of the Eindeckers was less than overwhelming: the new type was issued in ones and twos to existing reconnaissance squadrons, and it was to be nearly a year before the Germans were to follow the British in establishing specialist fighter squadrons. The Eindecker was also, in spite of its advanced armament, by no means an outstanding aircraft, being closely based on the pre-war Morane-Saulnier H, although it did feature a steel tubing fuselage framework (a characteristic of all Fokker wartime aircraft designs) instead of the wooden fuselage components of the French aircraft." (My emphasis)
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviatio...ghter_aircraft
            Anyway! Don't worry, the Mustang fanboys will undoubtedly out-vote us Spitfire fanboys, no matter what. So you voting other than the Spitfire will be one of many.

            Paul
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              In most cases, after 1940, they'll say they rarely encountered it.
              TAG, I usually agree with most of what you post but I couldn't let this one go. During 1940 - and in particular the period around the Battle of Britain - Luftwaffe pilots and aircrews were roughly twice as likely to deal with a Hurricane than with a Spitfire, simply because the Hurricane was much more numerous during that year. A major part of the reason for this was that the manufacture of Spitfires was relatively very slow to start with. Production did not even begin to approach "full swing" until well into 1941, IIRC.

              However, as the production of Spitfires steadily increased both in efficiency and volume, the Supermarine fighter steadily became more predominant; to the point where by late 1941/early 1942 (again, IIRC), it was the most commonly engaged British fighter for Germans in the Western theatres. The Hurricane was being steadily phased out as a first-line air superiority fighter in the ETO, and then in the MTO; but continued to serve very well in other roles.

              The Spitfire was, numerically speaking, by a wide margin the second most important British fighter in 1940. However, it did offer a useful performance increment over the Hurricane in air-to-air fighting; being IMO a near-equal to the Bf 109 at that particular time; and this was certainly a worthwhile benefit. I think you connected to this perfectly when you said:
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              The Spitfire made it easier for the British to win, it didn't make the impossible possible.
              Having said all this, the Spitfire by perhaps mid-late 1941 had become the most important first-line British fighter both in quality and in quantity; effectively becoming their only really competitive type that could cover all altitudes until at least 1944, if not to the end of the war, IIRC.

              I guess what I'm saying is that for Germans in the West, the Spitfire was - if anything - less likely to the encountered in 1940 compared to other British fighters, than in the middle and later war years.

              Also IMO, Dibble's point about "Spitfire snobbery" may well have some validity especially for 1940; as it seems to have been that German pilots and aircrews more than just occasionally claimed to have been tangling with Spitfires when often they had in fact been dealing with Hurricanes. This appears to have happened on occasions of both win and loss (more "bragging rights" if they won; more "consolation" if they came off 2nd). The Germans, if accounts are to be believed, had at least a healthy respect for the Spitfire for most of the war; except possibly for the time prior to the Mk. IX when the Fw 190 was making its mark.
              Last edited by panther3485; 12 May 15, 08:13.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                " ... Anyway! Don't worry, the Mustang fanboys will undoubtedly out-vote us Spitfire fanboys, no matter what. So you voting other than the Spitfire will be one of many.

                Paul
                Of course, it is by no means a forgone conclusion that the Spitfire will be up against the P-51 in the next Round. .... .... but then, it very easily might be. Who knows?
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • You know you want to, lol
                  "A foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse." Ulysses S. Grant

                  Comment


                  • ALL PARTICIPATING MEMBERS: URGENT NOTICE!

                    Hi everyone,

                    I am running a 24-hour snap-poll among these threads, exclusively for the participating members of this campaign. (The minimum requirement is that you need to have voted in at least two Rounds so far.)

                    The purpose of the poll is to allow you guys to decide the pairings for the next Round, which will be the Semi-Final.

                    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...86#post3036086

                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment

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