Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rnd 4 Grp E-H - Me 262 (Germany) vs F-86 Sabre & FJ-2/3 Fury (USA)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Rnd 4 Grp E-H - Me 262 (Germany) vs F-86 Sabre & FJ-2/3 Fury (USA)

    Round 4, Group E-H: Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany) vs North American F-86 Sabre & FJ-2/3 Fury (USA)


    Messerschmitt Me 262
    The Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") of Nazi Germany was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Design work started before World War II began but engine problems and other issues kept the aircraft from operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. Heavily armed, it was faster than any Allied fighter, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor. The Me 262 was used in a variety of roles including day fighter/interceptor, light bomber, reconnaissance and experimental night fighter versions. Me 262 pilots claimed a total of 542 Allied kills, although higher claims are sometimes made. The Allies countered its potential effectiveness in the air by attacking the aircraft on the ground and during takeoff and landing. Engine reliability problems, from the pioneering nature of its Junkers Jumo 004 axial-flow turbojet engines - the first ones ever placed in mass production - and attacks by Allied forces on fuel supplies during the deteriorating late-war situation also reduced the effectiveness of the aircraft. In the end, the Me 262 had a negligible impact on the course of the war. German use of the aircraft ended with the close of the Second World War but a small number were operated by the Czechoslovak Air Force until 1951. Captured Me 262s were studied and flight tested by the major powers, and ultimately influenced the designs of a number of post-war aircraft such as the North American F-86 Sabre and Boeing B-47 Stratojet.

    North American F-86 Sabre & FJ-2/3 Fury
    F-86: The F-86 Sabre, sometimes called the Sabrejet, was a transonic jet fighter aircraft. The Sabre is best known as the United States' first swept wing fighter which could counter the similarly-winged Soviet MiG-15 in high-speed dogfights during the Korean War (1950–1953). Considered one of the best and most important fighter aircraft in that war, the F-86 is also rated highly in comparison with fighters of other eras. Although it was developed in the late 1940s and was outdated by the end of the '50s, the Sabre proved versatile and adaptable, and continued as a front-line fighter in numerous air forces until the last active operational examples were retired by the Bolivian Air Force in 1994. Its success led to an extended production run of more than 7,800 aircraft between 1949 and 1956, in the U.S., Japan and Italy. Variants were built in Canada and Australia. The Canadair Sabre added another 1,815 airframes, and the significantly redesigned Australian CAC Sabre (sometimes known as the Avon Sabre or CAC CA-27), had a production run of 112. The Sabre was by far the most-produced Western jet fighter, with total production of all variants at 9,860 units.
    FJ-2/3: The FJ-2 and FJ-3 Fury were carrier-capable fighters for the United States Navy and Marine Corps, based on the F-86 Sabre. The FJ-2 and -3 featured folding wings and a longer nose landing strut designed to increase angle of attack upon launch and to accommodate a longer oleo to absorb the shock of hard landings on an aircraft carrier deck. Although sharing a U.S. Navy designation with its distant predecessor, the straight-winged North American FJ-1 Fury, the FJ-2/-3 were completely different aircraft.


    In your opinion, whose fighter had the greater significance and/or influence, Messerschmitt or North American?

    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?





    Candidate #83 - Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)

    Full Service From (approx) – 1944
    Quantity produced - 1,433
    User Nations - Germany, Czechoslovakia

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262












    Candidate #92 - North American F-86 Sabre & FJ-2/3 Fury (USA)

    Full Service From (approx) – 1949
    Quantity produced - 10,601
    User Nations - USA and more than 25 other countries (See Wiki link below)

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-86_Sabre
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...n_FJ-2/-3_Fury












    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    91
    Messerschmitt Me 262 (Germany)
    64.84%
    59
    North American F-86 Sabre & FJ-2/3 Fury (USA)
    35.16%
    32

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 17 Apr 15, 13:04.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    The Me 262 broke new ground but it was plagued by bugs. The F-86 was a better performing Fighter (everything worked when it should).

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      The Messer, simply because it was the first of a new type.

      Comment


      • #4
        The only significance in the short life of the Me 262 was that it was the first operational high speed jet fighter. The wing sweep thing would have occurred regardless as the Germans had that research on a widespread scale.

        The F-86 is the fighter of the early 50's. It is in many ways the technological arrow to the future of its era.
        For example, the F-86D and the export simplified K are the first true all-weather fighters that have the performance to match any day fighter. The D is a technological marvel for its time. With the APG 36 radar and Hughes E-4 fire control it can make collision course intercepts in darkness or foul weather. The D is also the largest production model of the F-86.
        Australia (CAC), Japan (Mitsubishi), and Canada (Canadair) all produced the plane for themselves and even limited export. Dozens of countries used it. Most interestingly, Yugoslavia bought 121... I don't think you can name a Western nation that bought a Soviet fighter in this period.

        The F-86 more than any other Western aircraft ushered in the era of jet fighters in the postwar years.

        The USN version FJ moved from being a carrier based "copy" (I use that term loosely) to a dedicated ground attack aircraft of significant capability. The later model FJ 4 was one of the first aircraft equipped with guided AGM's in the form of Bullpup.

        While the Me 262 showed the future, the F-86 was the future.

        Comment


        • #5
          Me 262 for being the first

          F86 was pretty but still only followed the Mig 15 and 17.
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
            Me 262 for being the first

            F86 was pretty but still only followed the Mig 15 and 17.
            Actually, the MiG 15 and 17 followed it...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              Actually, the MiG 15 and 17 followed it...
              15 and 86 both first flew in the same year, 1947. How ever the 86 was more advanced in design.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                15 and 86 both first flew in the same year, 1947. How ever the 86 was more advanced in design.
                And, the MiG 15 was never developed beyond a basic day fighter.

                Comment


                • #9
                  F-86 because not only was it a better aircraft but was developed into the whole line of postwar jets, IMHO

                  Susie
                  Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                  Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                  For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                  And battles long ago:
                  -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Me262 may have been the first jet effective jet fighter but it was used in small numbers and had little impact on the war.

                    The F86 was the principle US fighter in the 50s and was highly successful in Korea.
                    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm surprised at the poll numbers so far.

                      The F-86 had much more influence and significance than a barely flown fighter.

                      Sure the Me-262 scared the hell out of bomber crews but they were shot down by conventional fighters...
                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        Actually, the MiG 15 and 17 followed it...
                        I could be wrong but I thought the MiG-15 and the F-86 were developed pretty much in parallel; neither one following or taking anything from the other?
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Me 262:
                          crap, first and... The Airframe.
                          F-86:
                          War winner.

                          Hard choice. Gotta make my mind up.

                          posted from mobile
                          One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The F-86, which "set the weather" for fighter design in the 50s and beyond.
                            With all due respect to the inovative Me-262, it was not the first jet aircraft in operational service.
                            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                            Samuel Johnson.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                              The F-86, which "set the weather" for fighter design in the 50s and beyond.
                              With all due respect to the inovative Me-262, it was not the first jet aircraft in operational service.
                              It was the first high speed jet in operational service. Both the Meteor and P-59 that preceded it into operational service had speeds that were similar to that of contemporary piston engine aircraft.

                              That is the single contribution the Me 262 puts forward: A high speed airframe that allows it to break 500 mph easily while it's two contemporaries are still stuck at between 400 and 450 mph.

                              The Me 262 also makes first use of an axial turbojet, again the correct solution, rather than the centrifugal engines of the Meteor and P-59.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X