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Comparison to Most Significant/Influential Tank

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  • Comparison to Most Significant/Influential Tank

    I find it interesting that there was a great voting push for the Mark I-V series tanks based on it being the first tank yet with the current voting on Significant?Influential Fighter this does not seem to be a factor. Why would that be?
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

  • #2
    We will see how far the Eindecker will make it...

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    One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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    • #3
      Well, one argument could be that tank use in WW1 was largely dominated by one evolving British models, whereas in WW2+ there was a plethora of significant types.

      Aircraft could be be tougher because air power was colorful and innovative in WW1, but massively important in WW2 & later.

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      • #4
        I think it will be a matter of what aircraft make it to this survey's final 4...

        Based on current odds, I'd say it is likely to come down to a pick between something US and something German.
        Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 09 Apr 15, 15:46.

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        • #5
          Another factor is the relative lack of widely understood consensus/clarity around "first" for a fighter plane. AFAIK the Fokker E.I Eindecker was the first fighter to go into service with its main armament successfully synchronized to fire through the propeller; but it wasn't the first fighter plane per se. A few different types, including the likes of the British Vickers Gunbus, have been pointed to as being among the first "real" fighter planes; but the Gunbus has already fallen by the wayside in this tournament; despite forming the World's very first fighter squadron.

          The question of the first tank is generally deemed to be more clearly resolved and less disputable; at least, that seems to be the case in the sources I have read.

          IMO, what's truly significant in the tank tournament is that the outright winner was the French FT-17, which is rightfully regarded as the first tank in service to use what would become the standard configuration/layout that has applied to almost all tanks since.

          For very roughly similar reasons - being first to successfully mount a forward-firing armament in an optimal position/layout on a single-seat aircraft - it's quite possible that the Fokker Eindecker could finish up as the outright winner of these current polls. At the least, I'd expect it to make the semi-final. But we'll see.
          Last edited by panther3485; 09 Apr 15, 18:32.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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          • #6
            Weeeeep!

            Vickers Gunbus

            The bus was instrumental in causing the early mass production of a reliable Lewis gun. The pushers were underestimated - but the Airco DH-2 knocked the eindecker form the skies...

            Pushers and rotary engines were a 'good match'....
            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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            • #7
              Originally posted by marktwain View Post
              Vickers Gunbus

              The bus was instrumental in causing the early mass production of a reliable Lewis gun. The pushers were underestimated - but the Airco DH-2 knocked the eindecker form the skies...

              Pushers and rotary engines were a 'good match'....
              Personally, I don't think either the Gunbus or the DH-2 were fully appreciated by voters here. Not saying they necessarily should have won; but IMO the Gunbus at least should have gotten a few more votes than it did. The DH-2, though very worthy in its own right was up against the Eindecker; so it was going to struggle to attract votes anyway.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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              • #8
                My quick and much less than official research determined the bus as the first. I was equally surprised that no one was even mentioning a first at all.
                Last edited by JBark; 10 Apr 15, 06:24.
                John

                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                • #9
                  What I see with WW 1 aircraft is that the Germans came up with the "elegant" solution again and again. The Allies scrambled to meet those new developments and if it weren't for Germany being blockaded and short on everything they would have stomped the snot out of the British and French.

                  But, they were blockaded.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JBark View Post
                    My quick and much less than official determined the bus as the first. I was equally surprised that no one was even mentioning a first at all.
                    I think at least part of the reason for that is a considerable degree of uncertainty, in the minds of most, about which aircraft type - if any - should be properly recognized as being the first fighter plane. For example, wiki is far from clear about it (my bold and underline for emphasis):
                    "The first purpose-designed fighter aircraft included the British Vickers F.B.5, and machine guns were also fitted to several French types, such as the Morane-Saulnier L and N."
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_in_World_War_I

                    I've looked around (admittedly briefly) and so far have not yet found anything seriously approaching a definitive or clear statement on this point. Not saying there isn't one out there; but just that I haven't yet succeeded in finding it. By contrast, most if not all sources seem to accept the British Rhomboids as being the "first" tanks per se; or at least, the first ones to see active service. If I could find equivalent clarity as to which was the first fighter plane to see active service, I would indeed be most delighted!

                    Having said all the above, I think there is still a reasonable amount of focus in this current tournament on "highly significant firsts" within the development of fighter planes; most notably the Fokker Eindecker being first with a successfully synchronized machine gun. Perhaps the next most notable for our membership is the transition from the piston engine to the jet - which, when combined with the appropriate airframe development, turned out to be a giant leap forward for performance - and for which the Messerschmitt 262 seems set to garner the major credit in our little tournament?

                    So it's not as if the whole idea of "first" has been discarded here; and IMO if it were not for the widespread uncertainty as to which plane was the very first fighter, members would almost without doubt be flagging it repeatedly. Some of them wouldn't be able to stop themselves!
                    Last edited by panther3485; 10 Apr 15, 02:56.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      What I see with WW 1 aircraft is that the Germans came up with the "elegant" solution again and again. The Allies scrambled to meet those new developments and if it weren't for Germany being blockaded and short on everything they would have stomped the snot out of the British and French.

                      But, they were blockaded.
                      Without starting a debate on the course of WW1, I suggest that may be just a tad over-simplified, TAG. Mainly (if my reading on WW1 is any guide) because the best chance of a German victory had already slipped away by the end of 1914; and though the Germans showed considerable technical savvy they were not going to keep a big enough edge, for long enough or consistently enough, in the air to make a major impact on the war's outcome; and IMO this was all pretty much laid out to dry. On the plus side for your argument, there was a second glimmer of German hope immediately following the Russian collapse in late 1917 and by then without doubt, what you're talking about here - the effects of blockade and resulting shortages - would certainly have already begun to hurt. Was it enough on its own; or would the early 1918 German offensives have ultimately failed anyway? Good fodder for Alternate Timelines I think; but either way I don't see aircraft technology as being the primary deciding factor here?
                      Last edited by panther3485; 10 Apr 15, 03:25.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                        Without starting a debate on the course of WW1, I suggest that may be just a tad over-simplified, TAG. Mainly (if my reading on WW1 is any guide) because the best chance of a German victory had already slipped away by the end of 1914; and though the Germans showed considerable technical savvy they were not going to keep a big enough edge, for long enough or consistently enough, in the air to make a major impact on the war's outcome; and IMO this was all pretty much laid out to dry. On the plus side for your argument, there was a second glimmer of German hope immediately following the Russian collapse in late 1917 and by then without doubt, what you're talking about here - the effects of blockade and resulting shortages - would certainly have already begun to hurt. Was it enough on its own; or would the early 1918 German offensives have ultimately failed anyway? Good fodder for Alternate Timelines I think; but either way I don't see aircraft technology as being the primary deciding factor here?
                        I was talking about the air war in particular, not the whole war.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          I was talking about the air war in particular, not the whole war.
                          OK, my misunderstanding.
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                          • #14
                            The first fighter was some guy shooting at some other gu with a pistol from a airplane. Since they not here I am going for the next best thing. First fighter has we know it. Aka Eindecker
                            you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JBark View Post
                              I find it interesting that there was a great voting push for the Mark I-V series tanks based on it being the first tank yet with the current voting on Significant?Influential Fighter this does not seem to be a factor. Why would that be?
                              We're still in the weeding phase - things will get interesting when the list boils down to the final four, and I'm guessing they will include the Eindecker and the Me262.

                              The reality is that planes had been flying before WWI and most of the really gnarly bits had been figured out, unlike tanks which were conceived during a war.

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