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Rnd 1 Grp F - Northrop P-61 Black Widow (USA) vs Hawker Sea Fury (Britain)

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  • Rnd 1 Grp F - Northrop P-61 Black Widow (USA) vs Hawker Sea Fury (Britain)

    Round 1, Group F: Northrop P-61 Black Widow (USA) vs Hawker Sea Fury (Britain)


    Northrop P-61 Black Widow
    The Black Widow, named for the American spider, was the first operational U.S. military aircraft designed specifically for night interception of opposing aircraft, and the first aircraft specifically designed to use radar. The P-61 had a crew of three: Pilot, gunner, and radar operator. It was heavily armed, carrying four 20 mm Hispano M2 cannon mounted in the lower fuselage, and four .50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns mounted in a remote-controlled dorsal turret. The general appearance of the aircraft was quite distinctive, with its twin-boom layout and a central pod for the fuselage. Although not produced in large numbers, the Black Widow was very effectively operated as a night-fighter by USAAF squadrons in the ETO, the Mediterranean, the PTO and CBI during World War II. After the war, the P-61 served in the United States Air Force as a long-range, all weather, day/night interceptor for Air Defense Command until 1948, and Fifth Air Force until 1950.
    On the night of 14 August 1945, a P-61B of the 548th Night Fight Squadron named "Lady in the Dark" was unofficially credited with the last Allied air victory before VJ Day. The Black Widow had not served for a large proportion of the war but when it did, it had thoroughly proven itself as a formidable and very successful night fighter.

    Hawker Sea Fury
    The Sea Fury was the last propeller-driven fighter to serve with the Royal Navy, and also one of the fastest production single piston-engined aircraft ever built. Developed during WW2, the Sea Fury entered service two years after the war ended. It proved a popular aircraft with a number of overseas militaries and was used to good effect during the Korean War in the early 1950s, as well as against the 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion of Cuba. The Sea Fury's development had been formally initiated in 1943 in response to a wartime requirement of the RAF, thus the aircraft was initially named Fury. However, as WW2 drew to a close the RAF order was cancelled, but the Royal Navy saw the type as a suitable carrier aircraft, so the Fury - now to be known as the Sea Fury - was adopted for the Fleet Air Arm. The Sea Fury commenced operational service in 1947. While it had many design similarities to Hawker's preceding Tempest fighter - which shoudn't be at all surprising - it was considerably lighter; both the Sea Fury's wings and fuselage originated from the Tempest but were significantly modified and redesigned. Production Sea Furies were fitted with the powerful Bristol Centaurus engine and armed with four wing-mounted 20mm Hispano cannon. While originally developed as a pure aerial fighter, the definitive Sea Fury FB 11 was a fighter-bomber, the design being very suitable for this mission as well. The Sea Fury acquitted itself well in the Korean War, fighting effectively even against the MiG-15. It was retired by the majority of its military operators in the late 1950s in favour of jet aircraft, having rendered very good service for most of them.


    How do you see this? Should you vote for the Black Widow or the Sea Fury?

    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!

    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #85 - Northrop P-61 Black Widow (USA)

    Full Service From (approx) 1944
    Quantity produced - 706
    User Nations - USA

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_P-61_Black_Widow










    Candidate #90 - Hawker Sea Fury (Britain)

    Full Service From (approx) 1947
    Quantity produced - 864
    User Nations - Britain, Australia, Burma, Canada, Cuba, Egypt, Germany, Iraq, Netherlands, Pakistan

    For further info & some technical details, you can start with Wiki here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Sea_Fury










    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    77
    Northrop P-61 Black Widow (USA)
    70.13%
    54
    Hawker Sea Fury (Britain)
    29.87%
    23

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 07 Mar 15, 08:53.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    A bit like comparing apples and oranges. Night Fighters usually can't compare with even Carrier Fighters.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      Voted P-61 just because I've seen one.

      Neither are important.
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

      Comment


      • #4
        The Hawker Fury was a victim of its time. It was developed at a point where piston engine fighters were becoming obsolescent.

        The P-61 as a night fighter was designed from the start for that role. It incorporated some truly novel features and pointed the way to future night fighter design.
        For example, the RIO had night vision binoculars tied to the turret on the aircraft. This helped him visually locate targets at longer ranges than other night fighters without such an aid could.
        It's radar system became the Allied standard for late WW 2 and even continued postwar and was developed into postwar systems.
        The plane included air brakes to allow rapid deceleration on a target. It was really well thought out.
        Most of this became postwar night fighter standard fare and what started out on the P-61 evolved into systems found on any fighter of the 50's that was using a radar system for interception.

        Comment


        • #5
          The Sea Fury on the basis of appearance alone.
          "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
          Samuel Johnson.

          Comment


          • #6
            As much as I love the Sea Fury, it's only significance is that it represents the end of an era. Awesome plane, but obsolete from day one.
            ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

            BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

            BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

            Comment


            • #7
              Again, this is a "comparison" of widely disparate types. The P-61 was a highly effective, purpose -built, radar equipped nightfighter which continued in foreign serve for a decade or more after WWII.

              The Hawker Sea Fury was designed as a carrier based fighter which was still serving while the American navy had gone over to jets.

              I'll go with the P-61.
              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                The Hawker Sea Fury was designed as a carrier based fighter which was still serving while the American navy had gone over to jets.
                That's only because the British post war development and procurement programs for aircraft can only be characterized as abysmal. Britain's government in the 50's single handedly destroyed the nation's aircraft industry with some of the worst planning in history.
                The "Sandy storm" of 1957 declaring all manned fighter aircraft obsolete and ending virtually every development program created a holocaust on British aviation firms. Engineers left in droves for the US in particular in search of work. A few firms struggled on trying to make a go of private projects (like Folland and Hawker) but they just didn't have the means to make things happen without government support.

                Yes the FAA still was using prop aircraft as their primary planes but, as anyone would say it was not something they had to do but rather something poor management and planning caused.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Again, this is a "comparison" of widely disparate types. The P-61 was a highly effective, purpose -built, radar equipped nightfighter which continued in foreign serve for a decade or more after WWII.

                  The Hawker Sea Fury was designed as a carrier based fighter which was still serving while the American navy had gone over to jets.

                  I'll go with the P-61.
                  I wasn't going to post on any of these polls but it takes the biscuit when people judge the Fury as being outdated because of its piston engine against a aircraft that was outdated too. Not only with its engines but also having a twin boom fuselage. As for 'highly effective', even compared with the much earlier Mosquito or Me 110 it wasn't. And after the war, the Mossi was still much more capable.

                  Paul
                  ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                  All human ills he can subdue,
                  Or with a bauble or medal
                  Can win mans heart for you;
                  And many a blessing know to stew
                  To make a megloamaniac bright;
                  Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                  The Pixie is a little shite.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                    I wasn't going to post on any of these polls but it takes the biscuit when people judge the Fury as being outdated because of its piston engine against a aircraft that was outdated too. Not only with its engines but also having a twin boom fuselage. As for 'highly effective', even compared with the much earlier Mosquito or Me 110 it wasn't. And after the war, the Mossi was still much more capable.

                    Paul
                    Sure, the Mosquito and even Hornet were excellent night fighters. But, the NF 30 Mosquito and NF 21 Hornet are the variants that saw postwar service and used British license built radar and electronics that were essentially the same package the US developed and fitted to the P-61.
                    Even the NF 11 Meteor used that technology in the early 50's. That is once the RAF figured out that the NF 36 Mosquito wasn't going to cut it for night fighting in 1950.

                    This is at a point where the US has the F-94A and F-89A in production, and the YF-86D in testing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Tropics and Mosquitoes did not mix well, delamination and all that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        Sure, the Mosquito and even Hornet were excellent night fighters. But, the NF 30 Mosquito and NF 21 Hornet are the variants that saw postwar service and used British license built radar and electronics that were essentially the same package the US developed and fitted to the P-61.
                        Even the NF 11 Meteor used that technology in the early 50's. That is once the RAF figured out that the NF 36 Mosquito wasn't going to cut it for night fighting in 1950.

                        This is at a point where the US has the F-94A and F-89A in production, and the YF-86D in testing.
                        Right! Read where your radar development came from in the first place. What did the U.S boffins do? Did they say oh! thanks for all the radar development and information that you have given us! GOODBYE! Please shut the door behind you!

                        Or did the British also send over a large technical team to develope the radar further and show the U.S boffins how it's done then collaborate together to make excellent radar and utilise the capacity and facilities to produce said radar equipment to a high standard.

                        And when did the P61 'cut it' until? Anyway, I am still waiting for the answer to the The Hawker Fury was a victim of its time. "It was developed at a point where piston engine fighters were becoming obsolescent." criteria as opposed to a oversized, twin boomed, piston engined clunker.

                        Oh! The NF Mosquito remained in front line service until January 1952 which was a ten year stint and No. 199 Sqn, Bomber Command operated a handful of NF36's between December 1951 and March 1953 for activity akin to that of the multi-roll 'wartime' 100 group.

                        39 & 219 Sqn, provided night air defence over the Suez Canal area. 219Sqn, used their Mosquitoes for the defence until March 1953 when the Meteor NF11's were able to replace them.

                        Paul
                        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                        All human ills he can subdue,
                        Or with a bauble or medal
                        Can win mans heart for you;
                        And many a blessing know to stew
                        To make a megloamaniac bright;
                        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                        The Pixie is a little shite.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Marathag View Post
                          Tropics and Mosquitoes did not mix well, delamination and all that.
                          You should go away and 're-laminate' your post again then after you read up on the facts about 'tropics' and de Havilland Mosquitoes, you can show me what "Tropics and Mosquitoes did not mix well" actually was? Apart from a batch of airframes that were put together without formaldehyde in the bonding cement, what other Mosquitoes didn't mix with the tropics? What was the Mosquitoes combat record for the theatre?

                          Paul
                          ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                          All human ills he can subdue,
                          Or with a bauble or medal
                          Can win mans heart for you;
                          And many a blessing know to stew
                          To make a megloamaniac bright;
                          Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                          The Pixie is a little shite.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Two very different planes with two completely different roles. Having seen a Hawker Fury at a air show I must say it was impressive, beautiful lines.
                            But it is not a good comparison.
                            A better comparision would be the F8F Bear Cat and the Hawker Fury.
                            Two excellent examples of the pinicale of piston powered single engine air craft.
                            Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                            Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                              " ... A better comparision would be the F8F Bear Cat and the Hawker Fury.
                              Two excellent examples of the pinicale of piston powered single engine air craft."
                              Maybe, but those two didn't have their numbers drawn together.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment

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