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  • Proposed Fighter Plane 'Campaign' (Tournament)

    Hi guys,


    Given that many of you guys have obviously been enjoying the currently running 'Most Significant/Influential Tank' campaign/tournament, I think it's about time we organized it so that we don't go another year - or more - before the next campaign. In fact, while I'm not making any long-term promises I really do think we should be aiming to run at least two campaigns per year, if possible?

    With that idea firmly in mind and following some positive feedback during the tank tournament, it looks like the idea of running a 'Most Significant/Influential Fighter' (fighter plane) campaign would be welcome among the members of ACG.

    In common with our tank campaign, I would like to see a fighter plane tournament covering from WW1 up to the current era, divided into 4 time brackets along similar lines. For example in this case:

    1914-1936
    1937-1945
    1946-1979
    1980-present
    (Some adjustments/tweaking could be considered, of course.)

    Bear in mind that this is just the seed of an idea, and we should give ourselves plenty of time to work on framing it before it goes up. I'm looking at kicking this off some time around December 2014 if possible, which will give us the 6-month spacing between campaigns.

    To begin with, then, if any interested members could offer suggestions as to which planes should be on the start-line? I'm thinking we'll need 64 candidates again, to give anything remotely near adequate coverage to this topic.
    Indeed, given the very large number and variety of fighter planes that could potentially be nominated over the 100 years to be covered, we might be struggling to confine ourselves to 64 which would mean some culling for the starting line-up?


    Over to you guys.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Are we including the F-22 and F-35? Also, 1914 to 1937 is a mighty long time! Could it be broken up at say 1920 or 1925?

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      I would say '39 to '45, and restrict it to:

      aircraft that saw combat service in at least squadron strength.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        Are we including the F-22 and F-35? Also, 1914 to 1937 is a mighty long time! Could it be broken up at say 1920 or 1925?

        Pruitt
        If we are including both twin-engine and single-engine fighters together in a single poll (and I'm not totally sure about that just yet), then certainly I think, the F-22 for example would have to be included in the 1980-Present bracket?

        As for the proposed 1914-37 bracket (we could even make it 14-36 or 14-35), I was thinking of this as being more or less the era of the biplane? Certainly we can break it up if you like but then what do we do with the other brackets, considering that to avoid too much complication we have to divide the whole thing into 4 time brackets, if we are going to have separate brackets? We can't have 5 brackets as this would not work for a tournament as such? How would you suggest we configure the four brackets, then?
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #5
          Way cool. Some aircrafts I think should be included.

          Mig15, Mig21, Mirrage 3, Mirrage F1, F86, F16, F15, F14, F18, electric lighting, euro fighter and gripen.
          you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

          CPO Mzinyati

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            I would say '39 to '45, and restrict it to:

            aircraft that saw combat service in at least squadron strength.
            I agree totally, on the idea of service in at least squadron strength. However, for the current era we might have a few types that have been employed in squadron+ strength but haven't seen much if any combat?

            With the 39-45 thing, that's great because it covers WW2 neatly but I was thinking more along the lines of the transition from the biplane to the monoplane. Although this had not been totally completed by 1939, the likes of the Bf 109 and the Hurricane entered squadron service around 1937 IIRC, ushering in the era of the piston-engined monoplane fighter?

            What do you think?
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #7
              I would use the categories:

              1912 to 1917 Early planes
              This era sees the first use of aircraft and fighters in many configurations. These are low power aircraft with often limited maneuverability and limited weapons capacity.

              1918 to 1934 The biplane era.
              This era includes most of the "best" biplanes developed but leaves out the last generation where they were really obsolescent. It also sees the introduction of the first monoplane fighters.

              1935 to 1944 The pinnacle of piston engine flight.

              This era is the piston engine monoplane. Singles and twins with high power and ability to maneuver with substantial firepower are the norm.

              1945 to 1955 Jet engine era

              This covers all the early pre-sonic jet fighters. These planes are still largely free of electronics, generally don't use missiles, and there are few "all weather" planes in use.

              1956 to 1975 Supersonic era
              This is the first generation supersonic fighter plane. It covers planes like the US "Century series" or Soviet MiGs. Introduction of missiles is common but these still are limited in capacity.

              1976 to 1985 The first generation "electronic" airplane.

              This covers planes like the F-14, 15, 16 or MiG 23. These are planes that are now using some degree of computer aided design, missiles that are reliable, and are capable for the first time of truly vertical aerial combat.

              1985 to 2015 Second generation electronic aircraft.

              These are the true "fly by wire" computerized aircraft extant today. They can do amazing maneuvers, use sophisticated missiles, incorporate stealth, and the like.

              That breaks it down roughly by big development eras where you don't have one aircraft dominating the other choices.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                I would use the categories:

                1912 to 1917 Early planes
                This era sees the first use of aircraft and fighters in many configurations. These are low power aircraft with often limited maneuverability and limited weapons capacity.

                1918 to 1934 The biplane era.
                This era includes most of the "best" biplanes developed but leaves out the last generation where they were really obsolescent. It also sees the introduction of the first monoplane fighters.

                1935 to 1944 The pinnacle of piston engine flight.

                This era is the piston engine monoplane. Singles and twins with high power and ability to maneuver with substantial firepower are the norm.

                1945 to 1955 Jet engine era

                This covers all the early pre-sonic jet fighters. These planes are still largely free of electronics, generally don't use missiles, and there are few "all weather" planes in use.

                1956 to 1975 Supersonic era
                This is the first generation supersonic fighter plane. It covers planes like the US "Century series" or Soviet MiGs. Introduction of missiles is common but these still are limited in capacity.

                1976 to 1985 The first generation "electronic" airplane.

                This covers planes like the F-14, 15, 16 or MiG 23. These are planes that are now using some degree of computer aided design, missiles that are reliable, and are capable for the first time of truly vertical aerial combat.

                1985 to 2015 Second generation electronic aircraft.

                These are the true "fly by wire" computerized aircraft extant today. They can do amazing maneuvers, use sophisticated missiles, incorporate stealth, and the like.

                That breaks it down roughly by big development eras where you don't have one aircraft dominating the other choices.
                Those are nice neat groupings, TAG. However, unless I am reading you wrong this is 7 time groups? There's no reasonably easy way to make that work in a tournament. If there are going to be separate time groups at all, I see these as being the only reasonable alternatives:

                2 Groups
                4 Groups
                8 Groups

                Of those solutions, 2 would obviously be completely ineffective for the purposes of separation. 8 may give us more distinct and precise separations but it's starting to become very unwieldy. From the point of view of managing the tournament, 4 would be the easiest to work with IMO. Odd numbers of groups just don't work very well at all, unfortunately.

                It's much the same with the number of candidates. We can have 32 candidates over 5 rounds, or 64 over 6 rounds. If we wanted to go up another notch, it would be 128 candidates over 7 rounds but here again, that's getting much too cumbersome I think. Not to mention being far too much work.

                If we choose to work around 4 groups only, where would you draw the boundaries for those groups? Or do you think there's an 8-group solution that we should really seriously consider?
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Then switch the last group to 1985 to 1999 and add group 8, 2000 to 1015: Third generation electronic aircraft. These would be the ones that incorporate stealth (like the F-22) and have things like vectored thrust and can make maneuvers that defy conventional aerodynamics.

                  Start with say 8 to 12 planes from each group you have 64 to 96 aircraft initially.
                  That means the second round is down to 32 or 48.
                  Third round is 16 or 24.
                  Fourth is 8 or 12
                  Fifth is 4 or 6
                  Sixth is 2 or 3
                  The seventh should decide things.

                  That is one more round than the tank one went.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would combine the first two eras as there were not that many great planes made in quantity in the time period 1912-1917 (first fighter was actually the Vickers F.B.5 in July of 1914).

                    In WWI the Fokker DR. VII, DR. I, Sopwith Camel/Pup, S.E.5A, and Albatross, come to mind. Post WWI had a lot of crappy planes as the monoplanes came to reality.

                    1935 is a good break point as the P-35/36, Me 109, Spitfire and such started getting built at that point and continued development through WWII as the P-40, P-38, Me 110, Yak-1/3, Lagg 1/3/5/7, P-47, P-51, Hurricane, Mosquito, F-4U Corsair and of course the Me 262 were developed.

                    Post WWII brought a range of jet planes such as the Sabre and Mig-15. These were followed by the F-4, Mig-21/23, F-100+ and the Mirage series. Some naval fighters were also being made by the USA during this period but none that really made a mark.

                    The 1975-86 range is a bit short. I would make the cut off 1970 so you get about 15 years of the 1956-70 and then 1970-85 time periods. 1970 was also something of a break point in the Cold War and nearing the end of the Vietnam war.

                    This was kind of a dead era of development but I'm sure some posters can name a few great planes from this era.

                    My 2 cents anyway.



                    P.S. Great topic for the "Most Significant" poll!
                    Battles are dangerous affairs... Wang Hsi

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Then switch the last group to 1985 to 1999 and add group 8, 2000 to 1015: Third generation electronic aircraft. These would be the ones that incorporate stealth (like the F-22) and have things like vectored thrust and can make maneuvers that defy conventional aerodynamics.

                      Start with say 8 to 12 planes from each group you have 64 to 96 aircraft initially.
                      That means the second round is down to 32 or 48.
                      Third round is 16 or 24.
                      Fourth is 8 or 12
                      Fifth is 4 or 6
                      Sixth is 2 or 3
                      The seventh should decide things.

                      That is one more round than the tank one went.
                      I guess 64 candidates, in 8 groups of 8 over six Rounds, could work. We'll see what the rest of the members think. That solution at least eliminates the need for a 7th Round. If we were going to have a 7th round, we may as well fill all the slots this would allow for (which keeps us in pairs right through to the end) and go with 128 planes on the start line. Unfortunately I really do balk at that, quite frankly. Sheer bloody workload.

                      96 starters is a heck of a lot too; and it gets awkward because of the sixth round with 3 candidates. Whatever number of starters and groupings we choose we'd really want to keep it in pairs all the way to the Final, I reckon.

                      Thanks for the suggestions so far.
                      Last edited by panther3485; 01 Oct 14, 00:15.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pirate-Drakk View Post
                        I would combine the first two eras as there were not that many great planes made in quantity in the time period 1912-1917 (first fighter was actually the Vickers F.B.5 in July of 1914).

                        In WWI the Fokker DR. VII, DR. I, Sopwith Camel/Pup, S.E.5A, and Albatross, come to mind. Post WWI had a lot of crappy planes as the monoplanes came to reality.

                        1935 is a good break point as the P-35/36, Me 109, Spitfire and such started getting built at that point and continued development through WWII as the P-40, P-38, Me 110, Yak-1/3, Lagg 1/3/5/7, P-47, P-51, Hurricane, Mosquito, F-4U Corsair and of course the Me 262 were developed.

                        Post WWII brought a range of jet planes such as the Sabre and Mig-15. These were followed by the F-4, Mig-21/23, F-100+ and the Mirage series. Some naval fighters were also being made by the USA during this period but none that really made a mark.

                        The 1975-86 range is a bit short. I would make the cut off 1970 so you get about 15 years of the 1956-70 and then 1970-85 time periods. 1970 was also something of a break point in the Cold War and nearing the end of the Vietnam war.

                        This was kind of a dead era of development but I'm sure some posters can name a few great planes from this era.

                        My 2 cents anyway.



                        P.S. Great topic for the "Most Significant" poll!
                        Some more interesting suggestions worth considering there. Thanks for the input.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If you are only doing 64 Fighters, leave out the F-35. It has not gone to active squadrons or seen combat. The F-22 has just seen some combat last week, so I guess it qualifies.

                          Pruitt
                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by andrewza View Post
                            Way cool. Some aircrafts I think should be included.

                            Mig15, Mig21, Mirrage 3, Mirrage F1, F86, F16, F15, F14, F18, electric lighting, euro fighter and gripen.
                            Some good suggestions there. Not sure how we'll go with 64 slots. We may end up thinking we need 128!
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              Some good suggestions there. Not sure how we'll go with 64 slots. We may end up thinking we need 128!
                              The list may have to be bigger. I mean here some more.

                              Mig23, SU27, F4, vampier, metora, Freedom fighter, extra extra. Some may be knocked out fast I mean phatom vs freedom fighter is a phatom win. But Mig23 vs mirage F1?.

                              So if you cut out those that will not get votes maybe we could get a lower number.

                              By the way I would vote Mirrage, even though they where better.
                              you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                              CPO Mzinyati

                              Comment

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