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Most Decisive Battle Saratoga v Midway (Round 4)

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  • Most Decisive Battle Saratoga v Midway (Round 4)

    The battle of Saratoga 1777
    The Battles of Saratoga in September and October 1777 were decisive American victories resulting in the surrender of an entire British army of 9,000 men invading New York from Canada during the American Revolutionary War. This action, often referred to in the singular as the "battle of Saratoga", was actually two battles eighteen days apart: the Battle of Freeman's Farm on September 19 and the Battle of Bemis Heights on October 7. Both actions took place on the same ground, nine miles south of Saratoga, New York.

    Forced to retreat after his defeat on October 7, General John Burgoyne and his entire army surrendered a few days later after being surrounded by much larger American militia forces. The capture of an entire British army secured the northern American states from further attacks out of Canada and prevented New England from being isolated. A major result was that France entered the conflict on behalf of the Americans, thus dramatically improving the Americans' chances in the war. The battles of Saratoga, and the entire Saratoga campaign that concluded with the surrender of Burgoyne, are commonly seen as the turning point of the Revolution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saratoga

    The Battle of Midway was a major naval battle, widely regarded as the most important one of the Pacific Campaign of World War II. It took place from June 4 to June 7, 1942, approximately one month after the Battle of the Coral Sea, five months after the Japanese capture of Wake Island, and exactly six months to the day after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. The United States Navy decisively defeated a Japanese attack against Midway Atoll.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
    67
    Saratoga 1777
    56.72%
    38
    Midway 1942
    43.28%
    29

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    Have to go with Saratoga -- without that one there may have been no United States - and without a United States there would have been no Midway -

    I'm going with who hit when it counted the most - !
    I like Dogs far better than most People

    As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

    BoRG

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    • #3
      Ugh another tuff one to decide on, i don't know a whole lot about Saratoga.
      Was it as one sided as it sounds? and did it stop the English from any chances to win the war or was that later?
      Life is what happens to you when your busy making other plans! Lennon - www.lufttiger.com

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      • #4
        Hmm, no Saratoga, no Midway. So I figure Saratoga would be an easy pick.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by lufttiger View Post
          Ugh another tuff one to decide on, i don't know a whole lot about Saratoga.
          Was it as one sided as it sounds? and did it stop the English from any chances to win the war or was that later?
          It brought the French into the Revolution. Without the French, there probably wouldn't have been a United States. Yorktown pretty much ended the war.
          Last edited by Reaper; 06 Oct 08, 15:10.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
            Have to go with Saratoga -- without that one there may have been no United States - and without a United States there would have been no Midway -

            I'm going with who hit when it counted the most - !
            I agree. Saratoga,out of the four battles left is the most decisive.
            If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

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            • #7
              Japan survived Midway as a nation - albeit greatly changed.
              The US would not have survived a loss at Saratoga.
              AHIKS - Play by (E)mail board wargaming since 1965.
              The Blitz - Play by Email computer wargaming.

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              • #8
                As much as I wanted to vote for Midway and goodness knows I fought hard for Midway; I had to go with Saratoga. Just remember the 2nd full sized US aircraft carrier was named for Saratoga.
                Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

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                • #9
                  Saratoga. Midway was a regional or theatre victory, Saratoga went a long way to ensuring the success of the revolution and thus the creation of a new state.
                  The Purist

                  Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                  • #10
                    Though Saratoga went a long way to ensuring the creation of a new nation, its impact upon the rest of the world - in its time - pales in comparison to the impact of Midway - in its time - which, IMO, ensured that America would remain engaged in Europe, to the advantage of, & benefit to a great group of allies an entire hemisphere away, & to the tune of a great sum of men, capital & material.

                    A loss at Saratoga would have been grave, yes, but a loss at Midway would have most likely left Europe to her own means as Americans forced the issue of isolationism or full throttle concentration on the defeat & destruction of those that attacked her - Japan - upon those in power by their very participation, means, efforts, finance, & resolve. One cannot easily or entirely fathom what Europe would have endured & become if Americans so much as even flinched for a time, much less, wavered entirely from a significant response to & in Europe - in its time - but one cannot also say that America's participation was insignificant, either.

                    Saratoga is significant in what it inspired & wrought - not fully realized for many years to come. Midway is significant in what it allowed & did not put asunder for those a hemisphere away & in but a few years time at that.

                    If the contest were for its impact throughout time since, I would go with Saratoga, but I do not judge the decisiveness much beyond the time & conflict in which they occured.

                    Tough choice, but I go with Midway for its impact & assurance in its time!


                    Last edited by Admiral; 06 Oct 08, 18:17. Reason: Clarity
                    On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                    ACG History Today

                    BoRG

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Admiral
                      ...If the contest were for its impact throughout time since, I would go with Saratoga, but I do not judge the decisiveness much beyond the time & conflict in which they occured....
                      Wes,

                      Unfortunately, once these comparisons move on to where the battles themselves take place in different wars, centuries and even millennia we must take into account the long term effects of their decisiveness.

                      Midway was an important battle in its theatre as it gave the US navy a three month breather in the south Pacific but that advantage (number of carriers compared to the Japanese) was lost before the year was out. The loss of Wasp and Saratoga in the early autumn erased the US advantage and by the end of the Battle of Santa Cruz in November the US had only a single serviceable carrier until the arrival of the Essex (CV 9 commissioned in Dec 1942).

                      The long term advantage of Midway within its war can only be measured in a few months and had little effect outside the south Pacific. Saratoga, on the other hand had a permanent effect on the conduct of the war of independence.
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                      • #12
                        Wow, I had to vote for Saratogo. Looks like Midway may be steam rolled after its very impressive run.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Purist
                          The long term advantage of Midway within its war can only be measured in a few months and had little effect outside the south Pacific. Saratoga, on the other hand had a permanent effect on the conduct of the war of independence.
                          You keep saying this & you know that you must adhere to nothing more than a 'Europe First' policy that could & would easily have been nullified at the drop of the American peoples hat by the shear force of their pocket book, volunteerism, participation, & will, had the US lost @ Midway, thus driving the US Pacific Fleet back to Long Beach, Treasure Island, & Bremerton, with but a few more well placed bombs at the Pearl Fuel Tank Farms - in which case 10 Essex class carriers could not be supported even to the mid Pacific.

                          The easily established & well known mindset of most Americans at that point of time, as it was, & should Japan have prevailed at Midway, already throws water on the fire of your contentions & there is no denying that the impact upon Europe would have been far more than what you repeatedly keep referring to as "little effect" when such circumstances as a loss at Midway would have easily & certainly caused their sole focus to become Japan... all others be damned.

                          In the face of such circumstance, your casual mantra of "little effect outside the south Pacific" does not, nor can it even begin to stand to reason in regard.

                          Whether you will ever admit it or not, aside... I know that you know in your heart, & in your mind, that what is prevented is as often of as much significance as what is accomplished, sometimes more so, regardless of any ability to substantially quantify it.

                          Yes, Saratoga had ultimate effect upon the outcome of a Revolution, but victory @ Midway had far more broadly reaching effects which guaranteed aid & assistance to many allies engaged in a global conflict - in both hemispheres - which would not have occurred in American defeat at Midway.

                          As to the premise of "permanent effect on the conduct of war" ...

                          Please to tell me how that little argument squares with Britain's only recent repayment - in full - of its WWII debt to America? I'd say that would qualify as an effect stretching far beyond the extent of a war, one that Britain may well never have had anywhere near the opportunity to even secure in much of significantly helpful form, much less repay, if America had lost @ Midway & gone solo, as well as in concert/support with the ANZAC's against Japan. (Hmmm... ANZACs gone home ... another likely 'effect' that Great Britain could not easily afford)

                          Yes, yes... I know... such argument is mighty inconvenient, & academically unconventional...

                          But the argument is what it is!

                          Midway


                          Last edited by Admiral; 06 Oct 08, 21:06. Reason: Clarity & Spellin... Shoulda staid in skuol...
                          On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                          ACG History Today

                          BoRG

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                          • #14
                            While the "Midway" argument certainly has merit - and it's outcome was paramount to the success of the American endeavor in the Pacific, isn't the point of this debate what the overall significance was of each battle -- Saratoga vs Midway - in the "greater scheme of things"?

                            The defeat of Burgoyne at Saratoga, the capture of an entire British Army and the security of all New England, greatly aided in the formation and creation of a new Nation -- the United States. This one single battle turned the tide of the Revolutionary War as no other. Had Victory not been achieved in THIS battle, it is conceivable that there would have been no new nation created.

                            Midway, while a significant victory for beleaguered Naval forces served as a moral booster and a demonstration to the American Public that the Naval Forces of Japan were not invincible. Supply points were retained as you point out - and the war effort was no doubt significantly aided by the Midway Victory -- the question is, without talking about Europe and any other theater of war, was this a decisive battle to the extent that the fate of a Nation was at stake. I would assert that it was not - The United States would assuredly have suffered a significant set back - but sheer survival was not at stake - as it was at Saratoga.
                            I like Dogs far better than most People

                            As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

                            BoRG

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                            • #15
                              Isn't Saratoga about around New York somewhere ?? are those folks even 'mericans? -- I'm not even sure I like yankees

                              Don't get your panties in a bunch guys -- I'm just kidding
                              I like Dogs far better than most People

                              As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

                              BoRG

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