Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Most Decisive Battle – Actium vs Teutoburgerwald (Round 2)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Most Decisive Battle – Actium vs Teutoburgerwald (Round 2)

    The Battle of Actium was the decisive engagement in the Final War of the Roman Republic between the forces of Octavian and those of the combined forces of Mark Antony and Cleopatra. It was fought on September 2, 31 BC, on the Ionian Sea near the Roman colony of Actium in Greece. Octavian's fleet was commanded by Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, while Antony's fleet was supported by the fleet of his lover, Cleopatra VII, queen of Ptolemaic Egypt.

    The victory of Octavian's fleet enabled him to consolidate his power over Rome and its domains, leading to his adoption of the title of Princeps ("first citizen") and his accepting the title of Augustus from the Senate. As Augustus Caesar, he would preserve the trappings of a restored Republic, but many historians view his consolidation of power and the adoption of his honorifics flowing from his victory at Actium as the end of the Roman Republic and the beginning of the Roman Empire.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Actium

    The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest took place in the year 9 A.D. (probably lasting from September 9 to September 11) when an alliance of Germanic tribes led by Arminius, the son of Segimer of the Cherusci, ambushed and destroyed three Roman legions led by Publius Quinctilius Varus.

    The battle began a seven-year war which established the Rhine as the boundary of the Roman Empire for the next four hundred years, until the decline of the Roman influence in the West. The Roman Empire made no further concerted attempts to conquer Germania beyond the Rhine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...utoburg_Forest
    73
    Battle of Actium 31 BC
    61.64%
    45
    Battle of the Teutoburg Forest 9 AD
    38.36%
    28
    Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

    It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

    Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

    BORG

  • #2
    Birth of the Roman Empire...that was the difference for me on this tough one.
    http://www.militarywargaming.com

    "The Golden Rule of War, Speed - Simplicity - Boldness" -- General George S. Patton, Jr

    Comment


    • #3
      Actium!!!!!
      If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Legate View Post
        Actium!!!!!
        CANNAE !!!!


        Ooooops ! I'm in the wrong round !!!

        Greets,
        Stratego
        Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

        It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

        Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

        BORG

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Stratego View Post
          CANNAE !!!!


          Ooooops ! I'm in the wrong round !!!

          Greets,
          Stratego
          Just had to get the last word,didn't you?
          If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

          Comment


          • #6
            Teutobergerwald should not even be here.


            If this wa a discussion between Actium and Adrianople it would require some serious thought,....but this? Pfft! Not even worth a paragraph
            Last edited by The Purist; 24 Sep 08, 14:36.
            The Purist

            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

            Comment


            • #7
              At the time I would say Actium was more significant, decided the fate of the Empire.
              However for long term significance Teutoberg is more decisive. The division created by Teutberg is still extant in Europe today in terms of language, culture and development.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                At the time I would say Actium was more significant, decided the fate of the Empire.
                However for long term significance Teutoberg is more decisive. The division created by Teutberg is still extant in Europe today in terms of language, culture and development.
                Nicely said Surrey !!!



                Greets,
                Stratego
                Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                BORG

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stratego
                  ...The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest took place in the year 9 A.D. (probably lasting from September 9 to September 11) when an alliance of Germanic tribes led by Arminius, the son of Segimer of the Cherusci, ambushed and destroyed three Roman legions led by Publius Quinctilius Varus.

                  The battle began a seven-year war which established the Rhine as the boundary of the Roman Empire for the next four hundred years, until the decline of the Roman influence in the West. The Roman Empire made no further concerted attempts to conquer Germania beyond the Rhine.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...utoburg_Forest
                  Stratego,...Surrey,

                  This introduction is factually incorrect and its aftermath ( the belief in the effects of 9AD) is neither supported by modern scholarship or the archaelogical record,... Teutoburgerwald did not prevent further Roman expansion into Germania. What held the Romans to the Rhineland frontier are linked more to "the limits of empire" and economics, not a 'one-off' victory by a temporary alliance of Germani tribes. It would take a major essay to explain the truth behind Teutoburgerwald (which space does not allow) but suffice it to say that Wiki, in this case, is horribly, horribly wrong. There are numerous scholarly texts out there that explain the reality of the events of 9AD and how limited its effects were, I can only suggest that those interested seek them out.

                  Cheers.
                  The Purist

                  Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stratego View Post
                    Nicely said Surrey !!!



                    Greets,
                    Stratego
                    I think so!
                    A ME LE GUARDIE
                    "Di noi treṃ la nostra vecchia gloria. Tre secoli di fede e una vittoria". Gabriele D'Annunzio

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                      Teutoburgerwald did not prevent further Roman expansion into Germania. What held the Romans to the Rhineland frontier are linked more to "the limits of empire" and economics, not a 'one-off' victory by a temporary alliance of Germani tribes...
                      Dear Purist,
                      Like you, I feel that Adrianople should have won the match in the last round !
                      I feel however that the Teutoburgerwald is of importance also ! I DO believe that the defeat in the Teutoburgerwald WAS of significant importance in Roman's denial of wanting to make further expansion into the Rhineland...
                      Because, if you tell me that what withheld Roman expansion to push further into the Rhineland was linked more to "the limits of Empire" and economics, I do not understand why AFTER 9 AD, Rome still decided to conquer the provinces of Britannia, Arabia, Dacia, Thracia and Mesopotamia...
                      If Rome did not want to push its limits of empire further or did not have the economics to do this, then they would have never added Brittannia nor the other territories to their Empire AFTER 9 AD...
                      Or am I mistaken ????


                      Greets,
                      Stratego
                      Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                      It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                      Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                      BORG

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        At Teutoburgerwald, the conflict was between the Roman Empire and unaffiliated German tribes crystalized temporarily around a personage after revenge. The conflict then was between Roman and German culture as much as anything. What was decided was that Rome would not venture too vigorously to subdue the Germans as they had the Gauls. At Actium the conflict was between Roman factions in civil war. What was decided was who would rule Rome and define the Roman empirial system. I think Actium was more decisive. It decided political scores as only civil wars may. In Germany, Romans and Roman culture were in one region, Germans and German culture in another region. Embassies certainly provided opportunities for exchanges, two-way exchanges that did not stop after the battle. Such an embassy was the causus bellus for the battle. But after the battle the status quo was maintained. It certainly snuffed a possible future arc of conquest, but it was not clear how that conquest would be carried out since there was not a conflict at the time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stratego View Post
                          ...Because, if you tell me that what withheld Roman expansion to push further into the Rhineland was linked more to "the limits of Empire" and economics, I do not understand why AFTER 9 AD, Rome still decided to conquer the provinces of Britannia, Arabia, Dacia, Thracia and Mesopotamia...
                          If Rome did not want to push its limits of empire further or did not have the economics to do this, then they would have never added Brittannia nor the other territories to their Empire AFTER 9 AD...
                          Stratego,

                          I will be more than happy to expand on my reasoning for you but it will have to wait on my return from a brief out of town trip this evening. I also have to lay out my case why Stalingrad is a more decisive battle than Midway in another thread (promised for tomorrow evening). If you will have a little patience I hope to answer your (very good) questions before the weekend is over. I hope these answers will have the same effect on you as they had on me some years ago when I discovered them.

                          Cheers
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            Stratego,...Surrey,

                            This introduction is factually incorrect and its aftermath ( the belief in the effects of 9AD) is neither supported by modern scholarship or the archaelogical record,... Teutoburgerwald did not prevent further Roman expansion into Germania. What held the Romans to the Rhineland frontier are linked more to "the limits of empire" and economics, not a 'one-off' victory by a temporary alliance of Germani tribes. It would take a major essay to explain the truth behind Teutoburgerwald (which space does not allow) but suffice it to say that Wiki, in this case, is horribly, horribly wrong. There are numerous scholarly texts out there that explain the reality of the events of 9AD and how limited its effects were, I can only suggest that those interested seek them out.

                            Cheers.
                            If you think that Wiki is wrong, there is a process by which you may fix it! That is the whole point in Wikipedia. No one claims that it is the be all, end all of information. But it is meant to be a growing compendium of knowledge with millions of entries on topics never before entered into any encyclopedia.

                            Please stop claiming it is wrong and suggesting other sources you approve of. Just go to Wiki and follow the process to fix what you think is wrong.
                            History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
                            _________
                            BoRG
                            __________
                            "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Actium for me. Naval battle with this scope and scale. Results that so permeated the known civilized world at this time. Points hard to argue with.

                              I do wonder as we study these battles how accurate any descriptions can be of numbers involved and casualty lists. I think propaganda by the victors (they do write history, you know?) is more likely. How could Ptolemic Egypt even have 230 quinqueremes? (Let alone the 500 some have suggested) And if they were undermanned, as the wiki states, why didn't Mark Antony choose to fully crew, say 200, of these ships? And, come on, 230 ships, 300 crew each, all slaves or conquered soldiers? That is 69,000 pressed workers sent into battle? And they lost?
                              History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
                              _________
                              BoRG
                              __________
                              "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X