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Most Decisive Battle - Cannae v Actium (Round 1)

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  • Most Decisive Battle - Cannae v Actium (Round 1)

    The Battle of Cannae was a major battle of the Second Punic War, taking place on August 2, 216 BC near the town of Cannae in Apulia in southeast Italy. The army of the Carthaginian Empire under Hannibal decisively defeated a numerically superior army of the Roman Republic under command of the consuls Lucius Aemilius Paullus and Gaius Terentius Varro. Following the Battle of Cannae, Capua and several other Italian city-states defected from the Roman Republic. Although the battle failed to decide the outcome of the war in favour of Carthage, it is regarded as one of the greatest tactical feats in military history and the greatest defeat of Rome.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_cannae


    _______________

    The Battle of Actium was the decisive engagement in the Final War of the Roman Republic between the forces of Octavian and those of the combined forces of Mark Antony and Cleopatra. It was fought on September 2, 31 BC, on the Ionian Sea near the Roman colony of Actium in Greece. Octavian's fleet was commanded by Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, while Antony's fleet was supported by the fleet of his lover, Cleopatra VII, queen of Ptolemaic Egypt.

    The victory of Octavian's fleet enabled him to consolidate his power over Rome and its domains, leading to his adoption of the title of Princeps ("first citizen") and his accepting the title of Augustus from the Senate. As Augustus Caesar, he would preserve the trappings of a restored Republic, but many historians view his consolidation of power and the adoption of his honorifics flowing from his victory at Actium as the end of the Roman Republic and the beginning of the Roman Empire.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Actium
    81
    Cannae
    44.44%
    36
    Actium
    55.56%
    45
    On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

    ACG History Today

    BoRG

  • #2
    Cannae. This is probably the only reason we even know who Hannibal is.
    History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
    _________
    BoRG
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    "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

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    • #3
      Hannibal is my favorite.

      ELEPHANTS RULE!
      "All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers ... Each one owes infinitely more to the human race than to the particular country in which he was born." - Francois Fenelon

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      • #4
        Actium for me. Cannae was reversed at Zama a few years later whereas the impact of Actium lasted centuries.
        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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        • #5
          Actium. The reign of Octavian is one of the most important events in history. Cannae is an important battle,but it did not knock Rome out of the war.
          If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

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          • #6
            Actium is decisive, Cannae is only the "perfect battle" who every general dreams to realize...
            A ME LE GUARDIE
            "Di noi treṃ la nostra vecchia gloria. Tre secoli di fede e una vittoria". Gabriele D'Annunzio

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            • #7
              Cannae COULD have erased the Rome as we know it from the pages of history...
              Actium COULD have brought back the Roman Republic...for a while !!!

              The choice is obvious, NOT?

              Greets,
              Stratego
              Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

              It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

              Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

              BORG

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              • #8
                Cannae had a huge effect on military minds . . . but if not Cannae, another battle could've been immortalized instead. Ultimately Cannae changed nothing in history though.
                Like great battles? How about when they're animated for easy viewing?
                Visit my site, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps at www.theartofbattle.com.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jonathan4290 View Post
                  Cannae had a huge effect on military minds . . . but if not Cannae, another battle could've been immortalized instead. Ultimately Cannae changed nothing in history though.
                  Did Actium then? The Republic would've never have arisen long enough to have any lasting influence on Rome no matter what the outcome at Actium...it was already at its last breath when Caesar crossed the Rubicon, and it was already dead by the time of Actium !!!! Prior to Actium, the only thing that was uncertain was who would become the next sole ruler of Rome: Octavian or Marc Anthony...



                  Greets,
                  Stratego
                  Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                  It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                  Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                  BORG

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Cannae was not decisive. Sure Hannibal stayed in Italy almost 20 years, but Rome recovered from the loss of four legions and fought on. Marcus Antonius could not recover after losing at Actium.

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                    • #11
                      Cannae changed Rome for good as well militarily as well in politics...It was actually the beginning of the Roman Empire. Since then only ONE consul would rule Rome in times of crisis, not to mention the military improvements made...



                      Greets
                      Stratego
                      Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                      It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                      Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                      BORG

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stratego View Post
                        Did Actium then? The Republic would've never have arisen long enough to have any lasting influence on Rome no matter what the outcome at Actium...it was already at its last breath when Caesar crossed the Rubicon, and it was already dead by the time of Actium !!!! Prior to Actium, the only thing that was uncertain was who would become the next sole ruler of Rome: Octavian or Marc Anthony...



                        Greets,
                        Stratego
                        But if Antony had won then the Roman Empire could have fragmented in the 1st century BC rather than the 5th AD.
                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My last offensive to pull Cannae through...

                          1. Besides that it was the most "perfect" battle ever IMO...

                          2. Cannae pushed the Romans to have more flexibility in their armies, to appoint only one Consul to lead armies in times of war or crisis, which in turn led to a better high command-structure (instead of one consul the one day and the other consul another day), which led to Scipio Africanus that led to the eventual defeat of the Carthagianians, which in turn led to the beginning of the end of the "Roman Republic" because the Senate agreed to appoint a one-man power to lead in time of crisis and which in the end led to Sulla, Pompey, Caesar and the ultimate death of the Roman Republic !!!!!

                          3. It led to a great "change" in the social structure of the Roman Republic. (Reminding me of the post-Napoleonic period) The ten thousands that had fought Hannibal and had thus "saved" Rome were pretty peed off that they didn't get anything in return. While the patricians in Rome were celebrating the final defeat of Rome's nightmare, those veterans and their families were forgotten in the streets of Rome...and this created a huge "fracture" in the social structure of the Roman republic, a fight between plebs and patricians that would last until...Actium. It started with the Gracchi brothers, who wanted to give more land to the populace and got murdered in the process, it was followed by Marius, the man of the people who wanted to give his loyal veterans "an acre of land" and was followed by Julius Caesar who finally succeeded in breaking the power of the senate (and republic) and giving the people something to say. Unfortunately for the plebs, Caesar was murdered, but there came Augustus...and he managed to find the right path "in between" the plebs and the patricians. Enter the Roman Empire...




                          Greets,
                          Stratego
                          Last edited by Stratego; 18 Sep 08, 16:55.
                          Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                          It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                          Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                          BORG

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stratego View Post
                            My last offensive to pull Cannae through...

                            1. Besides that it was the most "perfect" battle ever IMO...

                            2. Cannae pushed the Romans to have more flexibility in their armies, to appoint only one Consul to lead armies in times of war or crisis, which in turn led to a better high command-structure (instead of one consul the one day and the other consul another day), which led to Scipio Africanus that led to the eventual defeat of the Carthagianians, which in turn led to the beginning of the end of the "Roman Republic" because the Senate agreed to appoint a one-man power to lead in time of crisis and which in the end led to Sulla, Pompey, Caesar and the ultimate death of the Roman Republic !!!!!

                            3. It led to a great "change" in the social structure of the Roman Republic. (Reminding me of the post-Napoleonic period) The ten thousands that had fought Hannibal and had thus "saved" Rome were pretty peed off that they didn't get anything in return. While the patricians in Rome were celebrating the final defeat of Rome's nightmare, those veterans and their families were forgotten in the streets of Rome...and this created a huge "fracture" in the social structure of the Roman republic, a fight between plebs and patricians that would last until...Actium. It started with the Gracchi brothers, who wanted to give more land to the populace and got murdered in the process, it was followed by Marius, the man of the people who wanted to give his loyal veterans "an acre of land" and was followed by Julius Caesar who finally succeeded in breaking the power of the senate (and republic) and giving the people something to say. Unfortunately for the plebs, Caesar was murdered, but there came Augustus...and he managed to find the right path "in between" the plebs and the patricians. Enter the Roman Empire...




                            Greets,
                            Stratego
                            Stratego, you certainly have made some valid points,but the fact that Rome was contesting Carthage for control of the Med. proves that the Romans were already on the path towards empire. All Cannae did did was drive home the fact that the Romans needed to adopt a new command system,granted one that did away with the Republic,but the strains on the republican system were already there. As I recall Rome stuck around a while after that.
                            Actium on the other hand is a different story. If Antony had won,the Empire,as Surrey points out,would have collapsed into different warring factions as the the people in Rome were not going to tolerate someone who,rightly or wrongly,was perceived to be under the influence of a foreign power,and an Eastern one at that.
                            If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Legate View Post
                              Stratego, you certainly have made some valid points,but the fact that Rome was contesting Carthage for control of the Med. proves that the Romans were already on the path towards empire. All Cannae did did was drive home the fact that the Romans needed to adopt a new command system,granted one that did away with the Republic,but the strains on the republican system were already there. As I recall Rome stuck around a while after that.
                              Actium on the other hand is a different story. If Antony had won,the Empire,as Surrey points out,would have collapsed into different warring factions as the the people in Rome were not going to tolerate someone who,rightly or wrongly,was perceived to be under the influence of a foreign power,and an Eastern one at that.
                              That may be true indeed, good points...but an underestimation of Roman resilience.
                              Do you even think that Anthony and Cleopatra would have lasted a long time as rulers of Rome? The Ptolemian kingdom did not possess the internal peace, nor the military to being able to take over Rome...it was prosperous Ok ! But being able to keep the proud Rome under their political influence Nah...not a chance ! Mark Anthony (who did not have the tact as Octavian in dealing with senate and people) would have suffered the same fate as Julius Caesar. Rome would never have fallen in the first century B.C. IMO...




                              Greets,
                              Stratego
                              Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                              It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                              Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                              BORG

                              Comment

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