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March Offensive Round 1: Montgomery vs. Sun Tzu

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  • British Tommy
    replied
    Originally posted by KGPanzerschrecK View Post
    Lets see.... The father of millitary thought vrs one of the most overrated generals in human history, ask anyone, except an Englishman, they'll tell you the same thing. Another no brainer here.
    That's your view point of Monty which many disagree with including me..... and I'm not English
    Monty was Prickly, overbearing and said what he thought but was a damned fine soldier and a leader of men who didn't throw his men's life away just to prove a point. Maybe this is why I dislike 'blood & guts' Patton but then that's my point of view

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  • 11nytram11
    replied
    I'm a long time out of this I suppose but I think this paring was a bit unfair.

    You put one of the most controversial Generals of the modern era who stirs incredibly strong feelings from his detractors and supporters against someone who is generally accepted to be one of the greatest military minds of all time.

    Surely the winner was obviously going to be Sun Tzu.

    When you have someone as polarizing as Monty involved you've got to give him someone equally as polarizing to run against just to give him a chance. That might be difficult to find however but pitting him against someone a bit more controversial than Sun Tzu would have made this a fairer contest.

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  • Redleg155
    replied
    Sun Tzu - hands down!!!

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  • CyberRanger
    replied
    Monty earns a nice retirement!

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  • frisco17
    replied
    I know how touchy this is so I'm gonna say it and be done. Not really a fan of Monty to cautious and conservative. Sun Tzu the artist of war.

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  • Siberian HEAT
    replied
    Also from Wikipedia. I don't profess to be an expert on Sun Tzu, although this makes me want to learn more.

    Unlike most shi, who were traveling academics, Sun Tzu worked as a mercenary (similar to a modern military consultant). According to tradition, King Helü of Wu hired Sun Tzu as a general approximately 512 BC after finishing his military treatise, the Bing Fa (The Art of War). After his hiring, the kingdom of Wu, previously considered a semi-barbaric state, went on to become the most powerful state of the period by conquering Chu, one of the most powerful states in the Spring and Autumn Period. Sun Tzu suddenly disappeared when King Helu finally conquered Chu.

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  • CyberRanger
    replied
    Originally posted by KGPanzerschrecK View Post
    Lets see.... The father of millitary thought vrs one of the most overrated generals in human history, ask anyone, except an Englishman, they'll tell you the same thing. Another no brainer here.
    I've been surprised by how many people have expressed this view point. Sun Tzu was a writer; Montgomery was a soldier. Did Sun Tzu ever command a single soldier or fight a single battle?

    For me, this is like saying the best coach in the NBA would defeat a mid-tier pro player in a game of horse. Of course, he wouldn't. The player will defeat the theorist everytime. In my mind, that's the match up here. Could Sun Tzu have maintained his cool in the heat of battle, could he have inspired his men to fight, could he really command? We have no proof he could have or ever did. (Please, do correct me if I'm wrong!)

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  • KGPanzerschrecK
    replied
    Lets see.... The father of millitary thought vrs one of the most overrated generals in human history, ask anyone, except an Englishman, they'll tell you the same thing. Another no brainer here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pirateship1982
    replied
    This one's an obvious pick. Monty wasn't incompentant as an officer but he was no strategist. This was the kind of guy you wanted on your staff managing something like logistics. He was a smart guy, just not a smart tactician. Sun Tzu can command in battle and was an excellent planner and organizer.

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  • JAMiAM
    replied
    Originally posted by British Tommy View Post
    eh? please explain a bit more!
    I was loosely paraphrasing one of Sun Tzu's maxim's. In Cleary's translation of The Art of War, under Planning a Siege, we have...

    Therefore those who win every battle are not really skillful - those who render other's armies helpless without fighting are the best of all.

    The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army.

    The lowest is to attack a city. Siege of a city is only done as a last resort.

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  • British Tommy
    replied
    Originally posted by Fuhrermeister View Post
    Monty was alright but even at El Alamein he had almost double the tank losses of Rommel so it wasn't brilliant.
    How can Monty be blamed for that?
    Just look back at the tactics British Tankers used before he arrived on the scene. They used cavalry tactics (Tally ho! and all that). By that I mean they just charged forward exactly as if they were riding horses. This is down to the training they had and the attitude of the senior Regiment officers.
    At Alamein Monty told them to hold back, let the enemy come to them but the ingrained cavalry training proved too strong for some... with the expected result
    Time and time again the British tanks chased after the 'fleeing' German armour, only to be impaled on prepared ATG's with the 88's taking a terrible toll. It wasn't until these outdated cavalry tactics were stopped that things got better.

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  • British Tommy
    replied
    Originally posted by chrisvalla View Post
    Bad pairing... Monty never had a chance IMO.
    Agree with that!

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  • British Tommy
    replied
    Originally posted by JAMiAM View Post
    Sun Tzu, since Monty would have been beat, before the war had even begun! To win without fighting is the greatest form of victory.
    eh? please explain a bit more!

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  • maian
    replied
    I dont see this as a hard choice for me. Sun Tzu!

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  • Alexander
    replied
    Hard choice for me - I just barely picked Sun Tzu.

    Sorry to all you Brits out there.

    Happy St. Patrick's Day!

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