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March Offensive Round 1: Montgomery vs. Sun Tzu

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  • March Offensive Round 1: Montgomery vs. Sun Tzu

    Here are some facts for each player to help you in your voting (From Wikipedia):

    Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, KG, GCB, DSO, PC (17 November 1887–24 March 1976), often referred to as "Monty", was a British Army officer. He successfully commanded Allied forces at the Battle of El Alamein, a major turning point in World War II, and troops under his command were largely responsible for the expulsion of Axis forces from North Africa[citation needed]. He was later a prominent commander in Italy and North-West Europe, where he was in command of all Allied ground forces during Operation Overlord until after the Battle of Normandy.

    Sun Tzu (c. 544 – 496 BC) was a Chinese author of The Art of War, an immensely influential ancient Chinese book on military strategy. He is also one of the earliest realists in international relations theory. The name Sun Tzu ("Master Sun") is an honorific title bestowed upon Sun Wu, the author's name. The character wu, meaning "military", is the same as the character in wu shu, or martial art. Sun Wu also has a courtesy name, Chang Qing.
    131
    Montgomery
    24.43%
    32
    Sun Tzu
    75.57%
    99
    Our forefathers died to give us freedom, not free stuff.

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  • #2
    Well, I don't care much for Monty but Sun Tzu didn't actually command or fight did he???

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    • #3
      Monty would have fixed Sun in place and hammered the dog doo-doo out of him. I know, I know, it's not about how they would have fought each other.
      Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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      • #4
        Monty was one of the greatest Generals of WW2. He gets my vote!
        success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
        Winston Churchill

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        • #5
          Monty was alright but even at El Alamein he had almost double the tank losses of Rommel so it wasn't brilliant. Sun Tzu didn't have any brilliant victories that come to mind but he did come up with the military maxim "To avoid was is strong you must destroy what is weak."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CyberRanger View Post
            Well, I don't care much for Monty but Sun Tzu didn't actually command or fight did he???
            With Brent on this one. Had Monty been paired with Bradley, Patton (ok - maybe not Patton) or Rommel... he'd be on the canvas... and I don't think I am just being anti-English British Tommy.

            I would like some opinions from everyone on Monty though.

            I'll give him El Alamein because he did what he had to in the face of one of the best of WWII (esp. in open ground). I can even see past the losses, as the defensive ground was reasonable.

            My main question would have to be in regards to his operational performance in Europe in '44. It appears that he continually overstated his expectations for success to Ike (and others) and repeatedly under-delivered.

            I am willing to concede that the British ability to make good their losses was on the downward curve by '44 (WWI and the 4+ years of war had done the job on British manpower and the political will to take the losses) and will even give him some benefit of the doubt on Goodwood & Epsom by acknowledging that he helped draw/hold troops from 3rd Army's sector during the breakout, but was he was the one that set his objectives in many of his operations on and after D-Day. Was his grasp of the situation and his ability to command within his planning so weak that he would fail repeatedly to deliver anything near to the expectations he help create?
            Tray Green

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            • #7
              Sun Tzu, since Monty would have been beat, before the war had even begun! To win without fighting is the greatest form of victory.
              I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

              Comment


              • #8
                Bad pairing... Monty never had a chance IMO.
                If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Look at my siganture to find out who got my vote. LOL!
                  All warfare is based on deception.
                  Sun Tzu - Art of war - Chapter One - Laying Plans


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hard choice for me - I just barely picked Sun Tzu.

                    Sorry to all you Brits out there.

                    Happy St. Patrick's Day!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I dont see this as a hard choice for me. Sun Tzu!
                      yeah!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JAMiAM View Post
                        Sun Tzu, since Monty would have been beat, before the war had even begun! To win without fighting is the greatest form of victory.
                        eh? please explain a bit more!
                        success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
                        Winston Churchill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chrisvalla View Post
                          Bad pairing... Monty never had a chance IMO.
                          Agree with that!
                          success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
                          Winston Churchill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fuhrermeister View Post
                            Monty was alright but even at El Alamein he had almost double the tank losses of Rommel so it wasn't brilliant.
                            How can Monty be blamed for that?
                            Just look back at the tactics British Tankers used before he arrived on the scene. They used cavalry tactics (Tally ho! and all that). By that I mean they just charged forward exactly as if they were riding horses. This is down to the training they had and the attitude of the senior Regiment officers.
                            At Alamein Monty told them to hold back, let the enemy come to them but the ingrained cavalry training proved too strong for some... with the expected result
                            Time and time again the British tanks chased after the 'fleeing' German armour, only to be impaled on prepared ATG's with the 88's taking a terrible toll. It wasn't until these outdated cavalry tactics were stopped that things got better.
                            success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
                            Winston Churchill

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by British Tommy View Post
                              eh? please explain a bit more!
                              I was loosely paraphrasing one of Sun Tzu's maxim's. In Cleary's translation of The Art of War, under Planning a Siege, we have...

                              Therefore those who win every battle are not really skillful - those who render other's armies helpless without fighting are the best of all.

                              The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army.

                              The lowest is to attack a city. Siege of a city is only done as a last resort.
                              I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                              Comment

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