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Greatest Blunders: Karansebes vs Crimean War (Round 3-Quarterfinals)

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  • Greatest Blunders: Karansebes vs Crimean War (Round 3-Quarterfinals)

    Battle of Karansebes 1788

    Why?
    A false warning by drunken Austrians causes the death of 10.000 of their fellow countrymen even before the enemy has been sighted...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes

    The Battle of Karánsebes was an early episode in the Austro-Turkish War of 1787-1791. Different portions of an Austrian army, which was scouting for forces of the Ottoman Empire, fired on each other by mistake, in a self-inflicted disaster. The battle took place on the evening of 17 September 1788. The Ottomans were victorious and captured the city.

    "History of Nations" by Sir Edward Creasy of Harvard University

    "...But during a night march from Karansebes toward Temesvar
    on September 20 the Austrian army fell into a causeless panic
    which thoroughly disorganized the troops for a time. This,
    combined with the heavy losses from disease, made the whole cam-
    paign a fruitless one for the Austrians, while the Turks gained
    some small successes. Altogether Austria lost in the operations of
    this year 30,000 men in killed and wounded, the greater part of
    whom fell at Karansebes or in desultory skirmishes, and 40,000
    more, who were swept away by pestilential disorders.
    "



    The Crimean War 1853-1856



    Why?
    Russia versus everyone else for control of the assets of the fading Ottoman Empire. Colossal blunders from everyone all around as far as how the war was run & fought.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
    http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/...historyid=aa47
    http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/blunder.html
    http://www.victorianweb.org/history/.../blunder2.html

    Politicians & military leaders alike blundered throughout the course of this war. The battles of Alma, Sevastopol, Balaclava (including the “Charge of the Light Brigade”), Inkerman, & Eupatoria all had their moments of blunders from both sides. The British (Lord Raglan & Palmerston), French (Marshall St. Arnaud & Napoleon III), & Russian (Menschikov & Nicholas) forces all showed they had commanders capable of blunders not only in the battles listed above, but in the way that the men were supplied & the wounded taken care of…..highlighted to their respective countries because of the quickness of reporting due to the telegraph & the ability to take photographs. A tremendous storm that blew up right before winter set in destroyed most of the provisions & winter equipment that the Allies could have used to stave off disease & bad conditions for the troops.
    63
    Battle of Karansebes 1788
    57.14%
    36
    Crimean War 1853-1856
    42.86%
    27
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

  • #2
    Karansebes. Still an unbelievable blunder.
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

    Comment


    • #3
      The Crimean War for me. Was any part of it not a blunder?
      Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

      That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Rojik View Post
        The Crimean War for me. Was any part of it not a blunder?
        Agreed. And especially since no one can confirm that the Karansebes battle actually took place.
        History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
        _________
        BoRG
        __________
        "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

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        • #5
          Crimea for me.
          The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Torien View Post
            Agreed. And especially since no one can confirm that the Karansebes battle actually took place.
            Agreed. I've never heard of it before and while I am no expert on the era I have read enough about it to have remembered such a thing. All we have is a wiki reference (which could have been put together by anybody for whatever motives) and this:

            But during a night march from Karansebes toward Temesvar on September 20 the Austrian army fell into a causeless panic which thoroughly disorganized the troops for a time. This, combined with the heavy losses from disease, made the whole campaign a fruitless one for the Austrians

            A bad campaign sure but I have some serious doubts that there were 10,000 casualties from friendly fire and will champion the Crimean war until that is proved otherwise.
            Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

            That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Rojik View Post
              Agreed. I've never heard of it before and while I am no expert on the era I have read enough about it to have remembered such a thing. All we have is a wiki reference (which could have been put together by anybody for whatever motives) and this:
              I first came across Karansebes in a book called The Hinge Factor by Erik Durschmied. Its not exactly a tour de force of scholarly historical essays but it does reference contemporary accounts.

              Die Geschichte des Joseph II - A J Gross-Hoffinger. Never published in Austria, remarkably . He was present in the Emperor's camp.

              Austrian archives, Lettres d'Empereur Joseph II a Prince Kaunitz

              as well as more modern accounts including The Decisive Battles of the Western World and their Influence upon History - J F C Fuller

              The figure of 10,000 casualties comes from Turkish accounts upon finding the aftermath. Probably inflated but the fact is the reversal was decisive and self inflicted. A letter from Joseph II to his brother is quoted in the book

              "This disaster which our army suffered due to the cowardice of some units is incalculable for the moment. The panic was everywhere, among the army, among the people of Karansebes, and all the way back to Temesvar, a good ten leagues from there. I cannot describe in words the terrible rape and killing that went on"

              Most of the regiments were made up of different ethnicities who couldn't converse with each other and in the panic and the dark assumed their comrades were the Turks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Voted Karansebes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Crimea! No doubts...
                  A ME LE GUARDIE
                  "Di noi tremň la nostra vecchia gloria. Tre secoli di fede e una vittoria". Gabriele D'Annunzio

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is still a very close one!
                    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                    Prayers.

                    BoRG

                    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I agree that some of Karansebes' background seems circumstantial... but I'm still resolved that if it existed as writ then it was by far the greater blunder.
                      Captain Khryses, Silver Star Omnilift Wing

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                        The Crimean War for me. Was any part of it not a blunder?
                        They Didn't attack their OWN men?

                        Crimean war was a blunder but still atleast they were killing the opposite forces.
                        God didn’t create evil. Evil is the result of when man does not have God's love in his heart.It's the cold when there is no heat.The darkness that comes when there is no light

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                        • #13
                          If Karansebes wins this round, I'll know that there are a lot of opions on this site I don't have to take seriously anymore. Simply put, the Crimean War was an embarassment dwarfing the Austrian mishap several times. Plus to measure a blunder one must look the ramifications it has on the loser. Karansebes did not erode the power of Austria one, not one iota. The Crimean War at least destablized Russia for a little bit. The Austrian mishap was of no conseqence whatsoever.
                          How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                          275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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                          • #14
                            Of course Karansebes existed !
                            Just because it is not well known by popular media or research, doesn't mean that events like this never happened.

                            Due to popularity in the media, useless events are made popular and important events are often made unpopular.

                            Look at Golden Spurs, look at Lechfeld, look at the Wallachian-Ottoman war, look at Ambiorix' fight against the Romans...they all happened and all are important events...but they are less popular because the media decides what should become popular and what not !!!

                            I will not stand for it...

                            They ALL should be brought into the spotlights !!!



                            Greets,
                            Stratego
                            Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                            It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                            Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                            BORG

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                            • #15
                              I have withheld my vote lest Karansebes really did not exist
                              It would have been a blunder to vote for a non-existant blunder
                              BoRG

                              You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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