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Greatest Blunder: Lechfeld vs Cannae (Round 2)

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  • Greatest Blunder: Lechfeld vs Cannae (Round 2)

    Battle of Lechfeld 955



    Why?
    The Magyars could have taken Otto in the flank and overwhelm him, but decided instead to take the loot from the baggage train.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechfeld

    The Battle of Lechfeld, often seen as the defining event for holding off the incursions of the Hungarians into Western Europe, was a decisive victory by Otto I the Great, King of the Germans, over the Hungarian leaders, the harka (military leader) Bulcsú and the chieftains Lél and Súr. Located south of Augsburg, the Lechfeld is the flood plain that lies along the Lech River.



    Battle of Cannae 216 BC



    Why?
    Consul Varro was much too anxious to delay the battle. He wanted to be the man to defeat Hannibal and save Rome. His army was too large to maneuver as it should at Cannae. It was hemmed in between a hill to the rear and the river Aufidius to their right.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_cannae

    Having recovered from their previous losses at Trebia (218 BC) and Trasimene (217 BC), the Romans decided to engage Hannibal at Cannae, with roughly 87,000 Roman and Allied troops. The Romans massed their heavy infantry in a deeper formation than usual while Hannibal utilized the double-envelopment tactic. This was so successful that the Roman army was destroyed as a fighting force.

    _____________

    BoRG
    77
    Battle of Lechfeld 955
    61.04%
    47
    Battle of Cannae 216BC
    38.96%
    30
    Last edited by Salinator; 28 May 10, 00:24.
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

  • #2
    Can Lechfeld survive against a great Roman defeat and blunder?
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

    Comment


    • #3
      Cannae is one of the greatest blunders in terms of missed opportunities by the Carthaginians. Had their rulers been a bit smarter, Rome would've barely been given a cursory note in history textbooks.
      www.histours.ru

      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

      Comment


      • #4
        Cannae!



        ...because throwing away your entire army in a bloody slaughter is slightly worse than getting distracted by looting and then being chased away for roughly even losses.

        Captain Khryses, Silver Star Omnilift Wing

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Khryses View Post
          Cannae!



          ...because throwing away your entire army in a bloody slaughter is slightly worse than getting distracted by looting and then being chased away for roughly even losses.

          Hello Khryes and ShAA,

          indeed the Carthaginians were not able to exploit their victory at Cannae and the Romans used their previously highly sucessfull phalanx approach.
          The Romans learned far more out of this battle then they lost.
          The Roman losses were obviously not as high as history want's us make to believe - otherwise the city of Rome would have fallen to the Carthagens.

          Besides the Gaius Terentius Varro, and Lucius Aemilius Paullus loosing a battle against the tactical superior Hannibal I do not see any blunder on both sides.

          The blunder at LECHFELD 955 was far more then just a battle blunder on a tactical level - since it led to the total destruction of the Magyar Hun army - and especially its leadership

          LECHFELD 955 caused the end of almost 600 years of NOMADIC TERROR towards Europe.
          Cannae did not cause the end of the Roman-Cartagian wars, it also did not cause the end of Rome.

          LECHFELD 955 set the beginning of the predominant military formation of the Knights Cavalry.
          Cannae set the change of Roman military doctrines but not an entirely knew setup directed towards a specific military unit that would dominate entire Europe for 500 years.

          LECHFELD 955 set the beginning of a knew era known as the Mediveal times that was to last for 500 years.
          Cannae had no such effect at all.

          LECHFELD 955 led to a unity amongst the German tribes to form the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE of GERMAN NATIONS that was to last for almost 900 years - till 1806.
          Cannae had no such effect at all.

          LECHFELD 955 led to the crowning of a GERMAN KING - to develop into an EMPEROR of the HREof German Nations.
          Cannae had no such effect at all

          LECHFELD 955 led to the foundation of a new country - Hungaria
          Cannae had no such effect at all.

          LECHFELD 955 led to a Fortification process of cities throughout Europe
          Cannae had no such effect at all.

          LECHFELD 955 set decisive perimeters for Europes development
          Cannae was just a battle amongst battles.

          Due to the MEGA battle blunders at LECHFELD 955 - which involved far more military blunders then just plundering a baggage train, all the above indicated matters could arise.

          Regards
          Kruska
          Last edited by Kruska; 30 May 10, 07:33.

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree that Lechfeld was significant historically Kruska - for all those excellent reasons you've cited above - but I just don't see the foundation of Hungary, the crowning of a German King or the fortification of cities as being blunders... and thus not really relevant to the parameters of the campaign as I see it.

            I do concede that mine is certainly not the only way to see things, of course
            Captain Khryses, Silver Star Omnilift Wing

            Comment


            • #7
              Cannae - no strategy but attack
              Lechfield - going for loot during the middle of a battle

              I don't know which battle is more fail. Maybe Cannae tactically and Lechfield in the greater scheme of things...
              Surrender? NutZ!
              -Varro

              Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. -Sun Tzu

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Khryses View Post
                I agree that Lechfeld was significant historically Kruska - for all those excellent reasons you've cited above - but I just don't see the foundation of Hungary, the crowning of a German King or the fortification of cities as being blunders... and thus not really relevant to the parameters of the campaign as I see it.

                I do concede that mine is certainly not the only way to see things, of course
                Hello Khryses,

                The foundation of Hungaria was due to the issue of LECHFELD 955 - that had routed the Magyar- Huns of their military and leadership capability - and had convienced them that their "plunder-strives" accross Europe could not be undertaken anymore. As such they decided to settle down in their homeland permanantly - thus forming the realm of Hungaria. They very fast adapted to the fortification program of Germany and Bohemia which resulted in many cities springing up in their new realm.
                This in turn more or less saved Europe 300 years later on behalf of the Mongol storm that could only be slowed down due to fortified cities crossing their path - especially in Hungaria.

                The crowning of a German king was the first step towards a German unity or the later following Holy Roman Empire. the fortification process enabled architecture to thrive in Germany and Europe.

                Maybe we differentiate on the view of what further causes, a Battle Blunder initiates towards a or several future developments. Therefore
                I tend to see the reults of a battle blunder not only on the "negative" impacts but also on the "positive" impacts.

                A positive impact of the Battle at Cannae IMHO was certainly the Roman revision towards their leadership evaluation concept in regards to promoting - rather a highly trained military strategist then a political protégé.

                As for Hannibal - besides having won a Battle, I do not see a "positive" impact - nor a "negative" impact.

                To clear LECHFELD 955 as having only been a "pure plunder blunder":

                Tactical details

                Otto deployed his divisions in a single line, without reserves. From right to left the line was held by Duke Conrad's Franconians, three Bavarian divisions, Otto's division and two Swabian divisions. The Bohemian division defended the camp.

                Thus he prevented the usual Magyar-Hun tactic of "isolating" smaller enemy units - which then they could easily anhiliate.

                It was also a unique approach/tactic by Otto - since befiore the units or military blocks were set behind each other and then directed individually towards the enemy. This previous tactis had enabled the Magyar-Huns to easily massacre the approaching single units - by encircling them and cutting - or rather arrowing them down.

                The Magyars mounted a rapid frontal attack in a typical horse archer swarm, raining arrows among the German knights, but this was only a feint. The main attack circled behind Otto's host and struck the camp, routing Boleslav's knights. The Magyar flanking force then attacked the two Swabian divisions from the rear while their compatriots attacked in front.

                The Swabians were disordered by the double attack, but they did not panic. Instead, they fell back fighting toward the king's division. Otto ordered Conrad to pull his division out from the extreme right and bring it behind the German line to help the Swabians on the enveloped left flank. Conrad brilliantly executed the difficult maneuver and his knights charged the Magyar flanking force. Pinned between Conrad and the Swabians, these horsemen were cut to pieces.

                Meanwhile, Otto and the Bavarians had been successfully holding off the enemy frontal attack. (Due to avoiding the "isolation" tactic of the Magyar Huns)Once Conrad disposed of the flanking force, Otto led a general advance. The better-armored German knights drove the Magyars inexorably back toward the Lech. Conrad was killed by an arrow.

                Seeing the day going against them, the Magyars bolted for their camp, fleeing across the river. Many were caught right in the shallow river bed made up of banks of pebbles and killed as they urged their tired horses up the steep and slippery west bank of the Lech.

                After the Germans stormed and plundered the Magyar camp, the raiders set out for Hungary. They had to swing a long detour south and east, during which a number of the smaller war parties were overtaken and slaughtered by the enraged local people.

                Regards
                Kruska
                Last edited by Kruska; 30 May 10, 10:41.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear GENTLEMEN and military BUFFS and PILUM lovers

                  please allow me to present the battle map of LECHFELD 955 once more:



                  As one can see, another major blunder by the Magyar-Huns, was to lay their main camp to the left side of the river LECH. - south of the city of Augsburg.

                  Inevitebly the Magyar-Huns were forced to cross the river Lech upon retreating to their main camp - which is exactly what happened at LECHFELD 955. Furthermore due to another river - the Wertach - the Magyar-Hun main camp was -"trapped" upon being attacked.

                  This led to the capture of the entire Magyar-Hun military Leadership - upon Otto breaking into their camp. Indeed a MEGA blunder.

                  Regards
                  Kruska
                  Last edited by Kruska; 30 May 10, 11:30.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I voted for Cannae but I'm willing to use my wildcard on Lechfeld if Kruska deposits a sizeable amount of cash in my account.
                    Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                    That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      please vote for



                      LECHFELD 955



                      You don't want to be responsible for Kruska early death, or do you?
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                        I voted for Cannae but I'm willing to use my wildcard on Lechfeld if Kruska deposits a sizeable amount of cash in my account.
                        Oh come on!! - when did a MEGA blunder such as LECHFELD 955 ever need "that" kind of trivial pursuit ??

                        P.S. I send you a PM

                        Regards
                        Kruska
                        Last edited by Kruska; 30 May 10, 11:28.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          please vote for



                          LECHFELD 955



                          You don't want to be responsible for Kruska early death, or do you?
                          ..w..what?..y..you..mean t..th..that LECHFELD 955 might not win ?

                          Regards
                          Kruska

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Lechfeld for me. I don't subscribe to Cannae being a blunder.

                            Again, it was genius on the part of Hannibal that secured this victory. Not a blunder on the part of the Romans. And blunder assigned to Hannibal is 20/20 hindsight of what may never have come to pass.
                            History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
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                            • #15
                              When looking at a Blunder we are looking at a battle that was lost by the losers rather than won by the victors. The assumption is that if the losers had been average then they would have won or forced a draw. The victors did not need to demonstrate genius or great good fortune in order to win.

                              Hannibal was one of the greatest commanders in history, a tactical genius with few rivals. Against other opponents the Romans using the same tactics could have won.

                              At Lechfeld the Magyars had an open goal, they could have easily encircled and killed Otto at an early stage in the battle, yet not only did they ignore this they attacked the baggage train. Not only did they attack the baggage train but they decided to dismount to do so enabling Otto to send his cavalry to destroy them.

                              Further due to the Magyars incompetent positioning restricting their movement options the Germans were able to engage them directly rather than the usual Nomad tactic of withdrawing and unleashing a hail of arrows.

                              Thus Lechfeld was lost by the Magyars rather than won by the Germans whereas Cannae was won by Hannibal rather than lost by the Romans.
                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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