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Greatest Blunder: Karansebes vs Siege of Breda (Round 2)

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  • Greatest Blunder: Karansebes vs Siege of Breda (Round 2)

    Battle of Karansebes 1788

    Why?
    A false warning by drunken Austrians causes the death of 10.000 of their fellow countrymen even before the enemy has been sighted...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes

    The Battle of Karánsebes was an early episode in the Austro-Turkish War of 1787-1791. Different portions of an Austrian army, which was scouting for forces of the Ottoman Empire, fired on each other by mistake, in a self-inflicted disaster. The battle took place on the evening of 17 September 1788. The Ottomans were victorious and captured the city.

    "History of Nations" by Sir Edward Creasy of Harvard University

    "...But during a night march from Karansebes toward Temesvar
    on September 20 the Austrian army fell into a causeless panic
    which thoroughly disorganized the troops for a time. This,
    combined with the heavy losses from disease, made the whole cam-
    paign a fruitless one for the Austrians, while the Turks gained
    some small successes. Altogether Austria lost in the operations of
    this year 30,000 men in killed and wounded, the greater part of
    whom fell at Karansebes or in desultory skirmishes, and 40,000
    more, who were swept away by pestilential disorders.
    "

    http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...a.shtml



    Siege of Breda 1590



    Why?
    A Dutch “Trojan horse ruse” succeeds. The Spanish got too comfortable and were surprised by a tiny force which they could’ve beaten if they hadn’t run away…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Breda_(1590)

    The Siege of Breda was an extremely short battle of the Eighty Years' War during which a Dutch army led by Maurice of Nassau captured the heavily protected city of Breda by a clever tactic reminiscent of the Trojan horse. The Dutch commander was informed that a ship carrying peat to the city was never checked by the Spanish soldiers. Together with the ship's captain he thought of a plan which involved 70 Dutch soldiers hiding in the peat. The plan worked and the city, garrisoned with about a 800 Spanish, was taken with an absolute minimum of casualties on the Dutch side.

    ___________

    BoRG
    65
    Battle of Karansebes 1788
    83.08%
    54
    Siege of Breda 1590
    16.92%
    11
    Last edited by Salinator; 28 May 10, 00:25.
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

  • #2
    Karansebes won big time in the last round. Breda squeaked by.........
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

    Comment


    • #3
      They're both tempting.

      But with Karansebes' veracity confirmed it's the scale of the blunder that wins it for me.

      Karansebes, all the way!
      Captain Khryses, Silver Star Omnilift Wing

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Khryses View Post
        They're both tempting.

        But with Karansebes' veracity confirmed it's the scale of the blunder that wins it for me.

        Karansebes, all the way!
        That and I still believe we should congratulate the Dutch for their ingenuity rather than blame the Spanish for the blunder of Breda.

        Karansebes for me.
        History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
        _________
        BoRG
        __________
        "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Karansebe...I won't be surprised if this one is the overall winner at the end.

          Could someone remind me how the Austrian were able to maintain an Empire for so long??

          Comment


          • #6
            Karansebes. One of the most colossal blunders of all time.
            Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
              Could someone remind me how the Austrian were able to maintain an Empire for so long??
              Being stuck next to a Russia that was busy looking in other directions, a decaying Ottoman empire, a bunch of small states in Germany and Italy and a Poland that was run by magnates that had more loyalties to foriegn powers than their own might have helped.

              Also I reckon they were more scared of their own army than the enemies.
              Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

              That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

              Comment


              • #8
                Karansebes. Self slaughter is pretty tough to top.
                "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
                — Groucho Marx

                Comment


                • #9
                  Aye, on the Surrey Scale of a Blunder being when the army or its commanders are to blame for its own defeat rather than it being due to enemy sneakiness Breda is good tactics.

                  Karansebes is a debacle.
                  Captain Khryses, Silver Star Omnilift Wing

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ah..I shall keep my devastating "secret information" in regards to Karansebes to the next round

                    Regards
                    Kruska

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kruska View Post
                      Ah..I shall keep my devastating "secret information" in regards to Karansebes to the next round

                      Regards
                      Kruska
                      ...good job.

                      You do that
                      Captain Khryses, Silver Star Omnilift Wing

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kruska View Post
                        Ah..I shall keep my devastating "secret information" in regards to Karansebes to the next round

                        Regards
                        Kruska
                        If by that you mean Proof of your previous startements regarding Karansebes then why not trot it out now... unless you're still writing it up that is.
                        BoRG
                        "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
                          If by that you mean Proof of your previous startements regarding Karansebes then why not trot it out now... unless you're still writing it up that is.
                          I'll second that. You've got a long post about Karansebes over in the Gallipoli/Battle Of France thread, simply move that post here and let's discuss it.

                          Kind of both our faults really Kruska, we got sidetracked in the wrong thread.
                          Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello R. Evans,

                            indeed - you are correct - I was already wondering about what happened to our postings - couldn't find it yesterday when I checked on "this" thread

                            Allright here we go:


                            Hello R. Evans,

                            thanks - but I do not see it as a mistake - but deliberate falsification by those Nappy dudes.

                            Okay, okay I was just joking - really - we all make mistakes.

                            Now back to the facts of the recorded accounts:

                            I can't really follow on the Turkish report - since the Turks never even came close to Karensebes. So how should they see something in the first place? and secondly there were never 10,000 dead and wounded.

                            The Austrian report - indicates to me a shootout amongst a group of Austrian soldiers (maybe a 100 dead if at all) resulting into a chaotic dispersal of parts of the Austrian column. The ensuing chaos cost maybe another couple of hundered lives (if at all).

                            The main discription and concern of the Austrian report concentrates far more - if not to say entirely - on the chaotic scenery - of the entire path of the column being littered with all kind of gear - from tents, baggage, kitchen and cooking utensils, cannons and weapons lying around. The report does not mention at any time - "dead or fallen bodies".

                            After the order was restored the Austrians marched on to their destination as planed - and set up camp. The report mentions that "many" (maybe a 10,000) of renegade troops that had fled in the chaos - took to their freedom (most of them being Balkanese) and ravaged and plundered the surrounding area.

                            Indeed I would agree that the English translation - which mentions 10,000 men "LOST" is giving a very precise indication of the situation. About 10,000 men had used the chaos to "gain freedom" as such they were indeed "LOST" for the Austrian army.

                            Army - reports are usually very precise in their usage of military terms - therefore I do not see a reason as to why a military report should mention "Lost" instead of killed or KIA or "Gefallen" or as dead.

                            One issue that has not been addressed so far (if I am not mistaken) is that the Karensebes incident occured during a night march. As such the "statement" of Austrian field guns opening fire onto the Austrian camp can be totally disregarded - since there was no camp - but an army on a night-march.

                            Persons that are far more familiar then me in regards to flint-look weapons being fired randomly by individuals at night might question; - a 10,000 wounded and dead? there are no records - neither in the English translation nor on the Auustrian report that company or bataillon sized formations took up a firefight - with who ever.

                            Regards
                            Kruska

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The Battle of Karansebes hands down. It's a blowout.
                              "The first time those bastards encounter US Marines, I want it to be the most traumatic experience of their miserable lives."
                              -Gen. James Mattis, USMC

                              Psalms 144.1

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