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  • #46
    I'm not surprised to see that most voters opted either for the one I chose, the Sherman, or for the other obvious contender, the T-34. I think that eventually the T-34 was cheaper to produce than the Sherman, but if you take into account the balance of cost/effectiveness, and you do that for the whole course of their operaitonal life and not just for the situation at the end of the war, I think the Sherman is slightly ahead.
    Michele

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Michele View Post
      I'm not surprised to see that most voters opted either for the one I chose, the Sherman, or for the other obvious contender, the T-34. I think that eventually the T-34 was cheaper to produce than the Sherman, but if you take into account the balance of cost/effectiveness, and you do that for the whole course of their operaitonal life and not just for the situation at the end of the war, I think the Sherman is slightly ahead.
      Thanks Michele, your vote for the Sherman has been recorded.

      I think you're right that it comes down to a choice between T-34 and M4. At the moment, I'm leaning slightly in favour of the T-34 myself. But I think it is very close. Also, I can see Nicks rationale for the Churchill based on its effectiveness per cost; so his argument does have some merit but by the same token, it was - compared to T-34 and M4 - rather low volume production and AFAIK never the principal tank in any theatre so that brings us back to T-34 and M4, for my money at least.
      "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
      Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

      Comment


      • #48
        Selected the T34 on this one.

        Highly Effective: M4, PzKpfw IV

        Good: Panther, Tiger I (those were interms of value for money and resources spent), Cromwell, Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw III, KV1, IS2, M3, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t).

        Fair: BT 5/7, Matilda II, Crusader.

        Poor: CharB, Type 97, Tiger II.

        Comment


        • #49
          It was hard I wanna to say T-34 but the IS-2 is great! Only problem with it is it is very slow...I am to lazy right now and don't wanna explain *yawn* sorry.... Maybe tommoro!

          Comment


          • #50
            Tiger II as a Poor?!

            Originally posted by llkinak View Post
            Selected the T34 on this one.

            Highly Effective: M4, PzKpfw IV

            Good: Panther, Tiger I (those were interms of value for money and resources spent), Cromwell, Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw III, KV1, IS2, M3, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t).

            Fair: BT 5/7, Matilda II, Crusader.

            Poor: CharB, Type 97, Tiger II.
            ARE YOU KINDING ME! The Tiger II was better than the Tiger I because it wouldn't get stuck in the mud! They fixed that, yes the gas was still a problem (And the Nazis were poor) but the King Tiger was the best of the Tigers. I can agree with the rest expect for the M4 as "Highly Effective" the Tiger I kicked that things butt! And all the Panthers and Tigers maybe not all the Panzers though...you should fix that thing up! With those tanks this is how it should go...

            Highly Effective: PzKpfw IV, Tiger II, Panther, IS-2

            Good: M4, Tiger II, PzKpfw 38 (T), Churchill, PzKpfw III, Valentine, Crusader, Somua S-35

            Fair: M3, KV1, (It was super slow!) Cromwell, Matilda II

            Poor: CharB, Type 97, BT 5/7
            ----------------------------------
            That is the right diagram!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by WWIIWWIpilot View Post
              ARE YOU KINDING ME! The Tiger II was better than the Tiger I because it wouldn't get stuck in the mud! They fixed that, yes the gas was still a problem (And the Nazis were poor) but the King Tiger was the best of the Tigers. I can agree with the rest expect for the M4 as "Highly Effective" the Tiger I kicked that things butt! And all the Panthers and Tigers maybe not all the Panzers though...you should fix that thing up! With those tanks this is how it should go...

              Highly Effective: PzKpfw IV, Tiger II, Panther, IS-2

              Good: M4, Tiger II, PzKpfw 38 (T), Churchill, PzKpfw III, Valentine, Crusader, Somua S-35

              Fair: M3, KV1, (It was super slow!) Cromwell, Matilda II

              Poor: CharB, Type 97, BT 5/7
              ----------------------------------
              That is the right diagram!
              Uh, no, not kidding. The KT was a poor use of resources. A vehicle which was expensive, used a great deal of materials Germany could ill afford, and was half the time broken down. It drank fuel which Germany didn't have, required transport needed for other things, and was in most respects an overweight, over rated waste.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                Uh, no, not kidding. The KT was a poor use of resources. A vehicle which was expensive, used a great deal of materials Germany could ill afford, and was half the time broken down. It drank fuel which Germany didn't have, required transport needed for other things, and was in most respects an overweight, over rated waste.
                I'm not sure you have this right. half of them were broken down half the time...the rest all the time.
                John

                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                  Selected the T34 on this one.

                  Highly Effective: M4, PzKpfw IV

                  Good: Panther, Tiger I (those were interms of value for money and resources spent), Cromwell, Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw III, KV1, IS2, M3, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t).

                  Fair: BT 5/7, Matilda II, Crusader.

                  Poor: CharB, Type 97, Tiger II.
                  Hi Lance,

                  There are 5 brackets and the two after 'Fair' are:

                  Somewhat wasteful (4 points)
                  Very wasteful (0 points)

                  Could you please indicate which of the lower ranking vehicles is going into each of those two brackets? Also if you could include the M13-40 as you did not rate this tank yet.

                  In the meantime, I have recorded as written, your scores for tanks in the first three brackets.
                  "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                  Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by WWIIWWIpilot View Post
                    It was hard I wanna to say T-34 but the IS-2 is great! Only problem with it is it is very slow...I am to lazy right now and don't wanna explain *yawn* sorry.... Maybe tommoro!
                    Welcome to ACG and to these tank polls, WWIIWWIpilot.

                    No hurry to explain anything, these polls are open for about another seven weeks yet. I would certainly be interested in your reasons for choosing the IS-2 if you wish to tell us some time. I actually do think it represented a good use of resources and value for cost to the Soviets. Whether it was good enough to rival the likes of T-34 or M4 would make for interesting discussion if nothing else. Also, while IS-2 was certainly not fast it wasn't unreasonably slow either and IIRC, not all that far from par for a heavy tank of that time.
                    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by WWIIWWIpilot View Post
                      "ARE YOU KINDING ME! The Tiger II was better than the Tiger I because it wouldn't get stuck in the mud! They fixed that, yes the gas was still a problem (And the Nazis were poor) but the King Tiger was the best of the Tigers."
                      Tiger II was intended as the replacement for Tiger I and indeed, production of Tiger I was stopped by the end of August 1944 in favour of the newer tank. Tiger II certainly had better armour protection and an even more potent gun. Unfortunately however, it had more problems with regard to mechanical reliability/stamina and was less agile than Tiger I. (Yes, I know 'agile' seems like a strange word to use when talking about heavy tanks but in fact, Tiger I was remarkably agile and mobile for a tank weighing 56-57 metric tons in those days).
                      General cross-country mobility and ground pressure for soft terrain was not significantly better for Tiger II (close, can't remember if there was a slight difference and which way it was). The track area of Tiger II was greater but so was the weight. Tiger II wasn't quite as sluggish and immobile as some writers would have us believe but it certainly was less agile than Tiger I, being powered by essentially the same engine but weighing around 13 tons more. Tiger II was also being deployed during the final year of the war when the required fuel, oil and logistic support was under enormous pressure. IMO it is possible to argue - with some reasonable grounds - that if the Germans were going to persist with heavy tanks at all, they might just as well have been better off simply continuing with Tiger I.


                      Originally posted by WWIIWWIpilot View Post
                      I can agree with the rest expect for the M4 as "Highly Effective" the Tiger I kicked that things butt! And all the Panthers and Tigers maybe not all the Panzers though
                      This particular poll deals with the effective use of resources. Comparisons of gunpower and armour - if that's what you are referring to - are covered in two of the other polls.


                      Originally posted by WWIIWWIpilot View Post
                      ...you should fix that thing up! With those tanks this is how it should go...

                      Highly Effective: PzKpfw IV, Tiger II, Panther, IS-2

                      Good: M4, Tiger II, PzKpfw 38 (T), Churchill, PzKpfw III, Valentine, Crusader, Somua S-35

                      Fair: M3, KV1, (It was super slow!) Cromwell, Matilda II

                      Poor: CharB, Type 97, BT 5/7
                      ----------------------------------
                      That is the right diagram!
                      There are 5 brackets to divide the tanks into and they are as follows:

                      Highly effective (16 points)
                      Good (12 points)
                      Fair (8 points)
                      Somewhat wasteful (4 points)
                      Very wasteful (0 points)

                      If you would like to arrange the tanks into those, I'd be happy to enter your scores on the spreadsheet (but please make sure you vote for at least one tank in each of the other 11 polls in this set).
                      Last edited by panther3485; 07 Jun 12, 10:20.
                      "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                      Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                        Hi Lance,

                        There are 5 brackets and the two after 'Fair' are:

                        Somewhat wasteful (4 points)
                        Very wasteful (0 points)

                        Could you please indicate which of the lower ranking vehicles is going into each of those two brackets? Also if you could include the M13-40 as you did not rate this tank yet.

                        In the meantime, I have recorded as written, your scores for tanks in the first three brackets.
                        Sorry, Paul. Brain cramp on my part. Please put the Tiger II and CharB into the Somewhat Wasteful category, and place the Type 97 and M13-40 in the Very Wasteful category. Thanks.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                          Sorry, Paul. Brain cramp on my part. Please put the Tiger II and CharB into the Somewhat Wasteful category, and place the Type 97 and M13-40 in the Very Wasteful category. Thanks.
                          OK Lance, done!
                          "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                          Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Voted for the M4 just ahead of the T34.

                            Highly effective: T-34, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t).

                            Good: Churchill, PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, Panther, BT-5/7, IS-2.

                            Fair: Tiger I, Matilda 2, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, , KV-1, M3.

                            Somewhat wasteful: M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Type 97 Chi-Ha.

                            Very wasteful : Crusader, Tiger 2.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 97th Foot View Post
                              Voted for the M4 just ahead of the T34.

                              Highly effective: T-34, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t).

                              Good: Churchill, PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, Panther, BT-5/7, IS-2.

                              Fair: Tiger I, Matilda 2, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, , KV-1, M3.

                              Somewhat wasteful: M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Type 97 Chi-Ha.

                              Very wasteful : Crusader, Tiger 2.
                              Thanks Neil, all recorded.
                              "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                              Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                My benchmark/champion tank for this criterion: T-34

                                Highly effective - Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw IV, M4 Medium
                                Good - Matilda II, Cromwell, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, Type 97, BT-5/7, IS-2, M3 Medium
                                Fair - Crusader, Tiger I, Panther, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, KV-1
                                Somewhat wasteful - Char B-1 bis
                                Very wasteful - Tiger II

                                ... and now, I do believe, that's me completed for these polls.
                                "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                                Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                                Comment

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