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Greatest/Best Tank - Transportability & Deployment

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  • #31
    All those factors considered, I think the M4 fit Allied needs just about perfectly and its transportability factor was excellent. Don't forget that a tank as light as the 38(t) would not have been able to meet medium tank battlefield requirements during the Sherman's time of combat in WW2 (which is why it had all but fallen out of first-line service by the second half of the war).
    Do the variants count? 2600 Hetzers, 1500 or so Marder III? All of those were quite capable of destroying enemy tanks until the end of the war.
    "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
    -Omar Bradley
    "Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
    -Anonymous US Army logistician

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Javaman View Post
      Do the variants count? 2600 Hetzers, 1500 or so Marder III? All of those were quite capable of destroying enemy tanks until the end of the war.
      Greatest/Best TANK should rule them out.
      John

      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Javaman View Post
        "Do the variants count? ... "
        If you mean variants other than gun tank types, no, as a general rule we are not counting them.
        In these polls, we are being asked to consider only the tanks proper. Derivatives and variants built for other roles - such as tank destroyers, SP guns etc - should not to be taken into consideration.
        The only exception to this is poll #9, 'Value to Allied/Axis Cause'. Under this criterion only, I am asking members to take other AFVs based on the same chassis, and used during WW2, into account.
        (See post #2 on that poll thread): http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=122155

        Last edited by panther3485; 11 Jun 12, 07:02.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #34
          Voted: M4.

          Excellent: Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), M13-14 M4, Somua S35, Type 97.

          Good: PzKpfw III , PzKpfw IV, Churchill, Cromwell, Matilda II, M3, BT-5/7, T34.

          OK: IS-2, KV-1, Crusader, Panther.

          Poor: Char B-1 bis, Tiger I, Tiger II.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 97th Foot View Post
            Voted: M4.

            Excellent: Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), M13-14 M4, Somua S35, Type 97.

            Good: PzKpfw III , PzKpfw IV, Churchill, Cromwell, Matilda II, M3, BT-5/7, T34.

            OK: IS-2, KV-1, Crusader, Panther.

            Poor: Char B-1 bis, Tiger I, Tiger II.
            Cheers Neil, all recorded on the spreadsheet.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #36
              Voted: Panzer 38(t)

              Excellent: Valentine, Panzer III, Panzer IV, M13/40, M4, Somua S35, Type 97 Medium, Crusader, BT 5/7.
              Good: Cromwell, Matilda II, M3 Medium, T34, Char b, M4 Medium
              OK: IS-2, KV-1, , Panther. Churchill
              Poor: Tiger I, Tiger II

              When it come to transportability, it is all about size and weight. The other considerations hold very little value. The larger the clumsier to fit within
              the standard transportation systems. Weight has it's own problems. But by and large as far as these vehicles are concerned the heaviest were also the largest.
              The point put forward that a certain vehicle was specially designed with transportability in mind.
              They all were.
              There is nothing new under the sun
              Point in case. Why did the Tiger have transportation tracks? Why where the airintakes on the Churchill removable? Exactly. Hence my vote for the Panzer 38 (t)

              Ed.
              Last edited by dutched; 25 Jun 12, 15:17.
              The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by dutched View Post
                Voted: Panzer 38(t)

                Excellent: Valentine, Panzer III, Panzer IV, M13/40, M4, Somua S35, Type 97 Medium, Crusader, BT 5/7.
                Good: Cromwell, Matilda II, M3 Medium, T34, Char b, M4 Medium
                OK: IS-2, KV-1, , Panther. Churchill
                Poor: Tiger I, Tiger II

                When it come to transportability, it is all about size and weight. The other considerations hold very little value. The larger the clumsier to fit within
                the standard transportation systems. Weight has it's own problems. But by and large as far as these vehicles are concerned the heaviest were also the largest.
                The point put forward that a certain vehicle was specially designed with transportability in mind.
                They all were.
                There is nothing new under the sun
                Point in case. Why did the Tiger have transportation tracks? Why where the airintakes on the Churchill removable? Exactly. Hence my vote for the Panzer 38 (t)

                Ed.
                Thanks Ed. You appear to have the M4 in both the 'Excellent' and the 'Good' brackets? Or is the first one a typo?
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  Thanks Ed. You appear to have the M4 in both the 'Excellent' and the 'Good' brackets? Or is the first one a typo?
                  Yes Paul the first is a typo a remnant of the Carro Armato type series.

                  Will you be posting a general conclusion to the main thread?
                  Or shall we be able to warm ourselves in the private knowledge that at the end of it all we know we were right (and the others wrong).

                  Cheers,

                  Ed.
                  The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by dutched View Post
                    "Yes Paul the first is a typo a remnant of the Carro Armato type series."
                    No problem. I've already put the M4 down for 12 points ('Good' bracket) on the spreadsheet against your name but I just wanted to be sure.


                    Originally posted by dutched View Post
                    "Will you be posting a general conclusion to the main thread?
                    Or shall we be able to warm ourselves in the private knowledge that at the end of it all we know we were right (and the others wrong).

                    Cheers,

                    Ed.
                    Yep. My intention is to do a very short summary for each of the polls at the end of their respective threads; and an overall conclusion at the end of the master thread.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I picked the T34 instead of the Sherman, because the Sherman had to be built in America and then transported across the Atlantic to various locations.
                      I hear stories of Russian factories where as soon as a T34 was finished, the crew will takeover and take it straight to the battlefield.

                      I don't know if the above statement is true, but the Soviets can transport the light t34s via railway stations.
                      If playing Donkey Kong, am I also playing Ass Kong?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        OK, so factoring in the needs and capabilities of the users, I think the M4 would get top marks here. It made it from Detroit to Okinawa, and conversely from Detroit to Manchuria via the Soviet Union. The US shipped all of its combat tanks across the oceans, and was able to send 26,600 medium tanks (mostly M4s) to its Allies. That's a lot of transportability. Light and small tanks like the Type 97, Pz.Kpfw.38(t), Crusader, and the BT tanks would theoretically be easier to transport, if the needs of the users are taken into account I'm not sure these light tanks hold up as the absolute best.

                        Excellent: M3, Pz.Kpfw.38(t), BT, Valentine, Cromwell, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV, T-34
                        Good: Crusader (small and light, but was almost a detriment once it arrived), Matilda II (small but relatively heavy for its time), SOMUA, M13/40 (small and light in absolute terms, but its weight was relatively magnified by Italy's infrastructure), Type 97 (see M13/40)
                        OK: Churchill (had to do some disassembly for rail transport), Char B, Panther, KV, IS-2
                        Poor: Tiger I, Tiger II

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
                          OK, so factoring in the needs and capabilities of the users, I think the M4 would get top marks here. It made it from Detroit to Okinawa, and conversely from Detroit to Manchuria via the Soviet Union. The US shipped all of its combat tanks across the oceans, and was able to send 26,600 medium tanks (mostly M4s) to its Allies. That's a lot of transportability. Light and small tanks like the Type 97, Pz.Kpfw.38(t), Crusader, and the BT tanks would theoretically be easier to transport, if the needs of the users are taken into account I'm not sure these light tanks hold up as the absolute best.

                          Excellent: M3, Pz.Kpfw.38(t), BT, Valentine, Cromwell, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV, T-34
                          Good: Crusader (small and light, but was almost a detriment once it arrived), Matilda II (small but relatively heavy for its time), SOMUA, M13/40 (small and light in absolute terms, but its weight was relatively magnified by Italy's infrastructure), Type 97 (see M13/40)
                          OK: Churchill (had to do some disassembly for rail transport), Char B, Panther, KV, IS-2
                          Poor: Tiger I, Tiger II
                          Thanks Chris. Some good reasoning there. All added to spreadsheet now.
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Sherman No.1 here

                            Valentine, Bt-7 and Pnzr III at Excellent

                            the rest at good, except the CharB1, Tigers 1&2 and Panther.
                            Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dashy View Post
                              Sherman No.1 here

                              Valentine, Bt-7 and Pnzr III at Excellent

                              the rest at good, except the CharB1, Tigers 1&2 and Panther.
                              Thanks, Scott.

                              I have interpreted and entered your preferences as follows:

                              Excellent (18 points) Valentine, BT-5/7, PzKpfw III
                              Good (12 points) Matilda II, Crusader, Churchill, Cromwell, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw IV, M 13-40, Type 97, T-34, KV-1, IS-2, M3 Medium
                              OK (6 points) Char B-1 bis, Panther
                              Poor (0 points) Tiger I, Tiger II

                              Please confirm if this is OK, or advise me of any adjustments you want made. Alternatively, if you prefer and there are any tanks you are not too sure where to place, we can always default to the 'average' method for those particular vehicles.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Final Scores for 'Transportability & Deployment'

                                Final Scores for the 'Transportability & Deployment' poll:

                                1st - M4 Medium (19.1)
                                2nd - PzKpfw III (17.1)
                                3rd - PzKpfw 38(t) (16.1)
                                4th - PzKpfw IV (16)
                                5th - M3 Medium (15.9)
                                6th - T-34 (15.7)
                                7th - BT-5/7 (15.5)
                                8th - Valentine (15.1)
                                9th - M 13-40 (14.8)
                                10th - Somua S-35 (13.8)
                                11th - Type 97 (13.7)
                                12th - Cromwell (12.5)
                                Equal 13th - Matilda II and Crusader (12)
                                14th - Churchill (8.1)
                                Equal 15th - KV-1 and IS-2
                                Equal 16th - Char B-1 bis and Panther
                                17th - Tiger I (2.1)
                                18th - Tiger II (0.2)


                                Comments:

                                My first thoughts here are that the top 7 and bottom 2 places are correctly filled, especially the bottom 2. But then I ask myself, for example, why would a T-34 be easier for the Soviets to transport and deploy than a BT-7 that weighs half as much? And the more I look, the more questions I ask myself. But then, this poll was going to be one of the more challenging ones for all of us, I reckon.

                                Thoughts?
                                Last edited by panther3485; 12 Aug 12, 09:40.
                                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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