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  • Greatest/Best Tank - Cost of Running/Maintenance/Repair

    Tips for Participants

    If you have not already done so, for an outline explanation of what is going on and how the polling and scoring processes will work please consult the Master Thread (Mega-Poll - Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 - Master Thread) and read the first three posts I have placed there, before beginning your participation in the 12 polls:

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=122093

    After you've read those first three posts (or if you've already done so), you are ready to start on the 12 poll threads.

    When you enter the poll threads, don't forget to read the Criteria Information (post #2 on each thread) for information on what's covered by that particular criterion; and precise details you'll need to register your score for all 21 of the tanks.
    39
    Matilda II
    0.00%
    0
    Crusader
    0.00%
    0
    Churchill
    0.00%
    0
    Valentine
    0.00%
    0
    Cromwell
    2.56%
    1
    Somua S-35
    0.00%
    0
    Char B-1 bis
    0.00%
    0
    PzKpfw 38(t)
    15.38%
    6
    PzKpfw III
    0.00%
    0
    PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined)
    0.00%
    0
    Tiger I
    0.00%
    0
    Panther
    0.00%
    0
    Tiger II
    0.00%
    0
    M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    0.00%
    0
    Type 97 Chi-Ha
    0.00%
    0
    BT-5/7
    0.00%
    0
    T-34 (76 and 85 combined)
    15.38%
    6
    KV-1
    0.00%
    0
    IS-2
    0.00%
    0
    M3 Medium
    0.00%
    0
    M4 Medium (all versions combined)
    66.67%
    26

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 23 Apr 12, 09:13.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Criteria Information



    Welcome to the Running/Maintenance/Repair Poll; one of twelve polls where you will have the opportunity to help decide the greatest/best tank of WW2, as determined by our ACG membership.

    You are also invited to discuss/debate the relative costs of running, maintenance and repair for all 21 tanks in this particular thread.


    10. Effort/cost of running, maintenance and repair (max 30 points)

    Some tanks were relatively expensive and difficult to run, maintain and repair. These imposed a greater logistic burden on the forces of the user nation to keep their tanks serviceable (or, under difficult conditions negatively impact serviceability rates) as well as being an undue drain on national resources in a war of attrition, with the attendant strategic impacts. These tanks should therefore be given a lower score.
    Other tanks were much less expensive and difficult to keep serviceable and should be given a higher score.

    Under this criterion then, we should evaluate the relative costs and efforts of running the various tanks and keeping them operational. These could include:

    · Amounts of fuel, oil and other consumables needed
    · Level and intensity of regular maintenance required
    · Frequency of need for repair
    · Degree of requirement for expensive and/or very heavy specialized equipment for maintenance/repair
    · Effort required to recover an immobilized tank
    · Design aspects that made the tank easier or harder to service and repair in the field
    · Effort required to backload a severely damaged tank for more extensive repairs, when it was too badly damaged for field workshops to fix


    All Participants

    If you have not already done so, please vote for the one tank that you believe measures up best against this criterion.

    Level 2 Participants Only

    Brackets

    Please rate the remaining 20 tanks by placing each of them into one of the brackets below:

    In your opinion, was the overall cost of running, maintaining and repairing this tank ...

    Very low (24)
    Low (18)
    Moderate (12)
    High (6)
    Very high (0)
    Last edited by panther3485; 27 Apr 12, 11:19.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

    Comment


    • #3
      No brainer for me. This is THE strength of the M4 imo.

      Very low (24) - T34, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw 38(t), M3 Medium
      Low (18) - Churchill, IS-2, Pz III and IV, Type 97 Chi-Ha.
      Moderate (12) - Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7
      High (6) - Matilda 2, Tiger 1
      Very high (0) - Crusader, KV-1, Tiger 2, Panther.
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

      Comment


      • #4
        Benchmark: M4 Medium (all versions combined)

        Very Low: M3 Medium, T-34 (76 and 85 combined),

        Low: Valentine, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t),

        Moderate: Churchill, Matilda II, BT-5/7, Cromwell, Somua S-35, PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined), M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Type 97 Chi-Ha

        High: KV-1, Tiger I, Char B-1 bis,

        Very High: Tiger II, Panther, Crusader

        As Nick said, The M4 medium sets the bar. The M3 medium provided the basis, and the T-34 was another easy to maintain beast.

        Down the other end, some of the kit was just too finicky to be left to the crew to maintain.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
          No brainer for me. This is THE strength of the M4 imo.

          Very low (24) - T34, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw 38(t), M3 Medium
          Low (18) - Churchill, IS-2, Pz III and IV, Type 97 Chi-Ha.
          Moderate (12) - Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7
          High (6) - Matilda 2, Tiger 1
          Very high (0) - Crusader, KV-1, Tiger 2, Panther.
          Thanks Nick. All in.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
            Benchmark: M4 Medium (all versions combined)

            Very Low: M3 Medium, T-34 (76 and 85 combined),

            Low: Valentine, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t),

            Moderate: Churchill, Matilda II, BT-5/7, Cromwell, Somua S-35, PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined), M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Type 97 Chi-Ha

            High: KV-1, Tiger I, Char B-1 bis,

            Very High: Tiger II, Panther, Crusader

            As Nick said, The M4 medium sets the bar. The M3 medium provided the basis, and the T-34 was another easy to maintain beast.

            Down the other end, some of the kit was just too finicky to be left to the crew to maintain.
            Thanks brod. All done.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #7
              10. Effort/cost of running, maintenance and repair (30) M4

              (a) Very low (24) IS-2 PzKpfw 38T T-34

              (b) Low (18) M13-14 Somua S35 M3 PzKpfw III

              (c) Moderate (12) Type 97 Churchill Cromwell Matilda II Valentine Matilda II PzKpfw IV

              (d) High (6) Tiger I Tiger II Panther KV-1 Char B-1 Crusader

              (e) Very high (0)………………….


              “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”

              Comment


              • #8
                Winner---M4 Sherman


                Very low (24)Valentine, T-34
                Low (18)PzIII, PzIV, IS-2, 38t, BT-7, M3 Grant, Cromwell
                Moderate (12)S-35, Type-97, Churchill, Matilda II, Tiger I
                High (6)CharB1 bis, KV-1, Panther, M-13/14
                Very high (0)Tiger II, Crusader


                Sherman wins hands down. After that comes the T-34 and Valentine. Both had excellent mechanical abilities and reliability. The Valentine had the best fuel economy on the board.

                The PzIII, PzIV, and Churchill were staples of reliability in the field and easy to work on, but the Churchill had poor fuel economy requiring more refills.

                CharB, Panther, and Crusader had the worst reputations for breaking down. The Crusader was rushed into service too soon during the invasion scare, and her bugs were not ironed out until the tank was obsolete. Panther at least got some bugs fixed in time to still be competetive. The Tiger II barely saw combat due to its high breakdown rate and difficulty to transport and tow when down. She was rushed into service too soon as well. I don't know if the Tiger II's problems would've been fixed in time to still be a commanding presence on the battlefield, but the war ended before it saw any solutions so it gets the basement.

                I don't know if being rushed into service too soon is the tank's fault or not, but I decided not to cut the Crusader or Tiger II any slack for this.
                "In the absence of orders...find something and kill it!" Lt. General Erwin Rommel, 1942

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wellsfargo View Post
                  10. Effort/cost of running, maintenance and repair (30) M4

                  (a) Very low (24) IS-2 PzKpfw 38T T-34

                  (b) Low (18) M13-14 Somua S35 M3 PzKpfw III

                  (c) Moderate (12) Type 97 Churchill Cromwell Matilda II Valentine Matilda II PzKpfw IV

                  (d) High (6) Tiger I Tiger II Panther KV-1 Char B-1 Crusader

                  (e) Very high (0)………………….


                  “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
                  ... and the BT-5/7?
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by smallvillekalel View Post
                    Winner---M4 Sherman


                    Very low (24)Valentine, T-34
                    Low (18)PzIII, PzIV, IS-2, 38t, BT-7, M3 Grant, Cromwell
                    Moderate (12)S-35, Type-97, Churchill, Matilda II, Tiger I
                    High (6)CharB1 bis, KV-1, Panther, M-13/14
                    Very high (0)Tiger II, Crusader


                    Sherman wins hands down. After that comes the T-34 and Valentine. Both had excellent mechanical abilities and reliability. The Valentine had the best fuel economy on the board.

                    The PzIII, PzIV, and Churchill were staples of reliability in the field and easy to work on, but the Churchill had poor fuel economy requiring more refills.

                    CharB, Panther, and Crusader had the worst reputations for breaking down. The Crusader was rushed into service too soon during the invasion scare, and her bugs were not ironed out until the tank was obsolete. Panther at least got some bugs fixed in time to still be competetive. The Tiger II barely saw combat due to its high breakdown rate and difficulty to transport and tow when down. She was rushed into service too soon as well. I don't know if the Tiger II's problems would've been fixed in time to still be a commanding presence on the battlefield, but the war ended before it saw any solutions so it gets the basement.

                    I don't know if being rushed into service too soon is the tank's fault or not, but I decided not to cut the Crusader or Tiger II any slack for this.
                    Thanks David, done.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I chose the T-34 over the Sherman. Both are excellent and reliable tanks, but the T-34's use of a diesel instead of petrol makes it more fuel efficient.

                      Very low: Sherman, Lee
                      Low: PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw 38(t), BT-5/7, IS-2
                      Moderate: Tiger I, PzKpfw III, S-35, Type 97, Churchill, Cromwell, Matilda II, Valentine
                      High: Panther, Crusader, M13/etc, KV-1/2
                      Very high: Char B1, Tiger II
                      "Do you like your new weapon? It's wonderful...Try it on yourselves, not others. I told you, this tank reacts to impulses of fear. Try not to think of danger. The machine can read your thoughts..."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cougar1 View Post
                        I chose the T-34 over the Sherman. Both are excellent and reliable tanks, but the T-34's use of a diesel instead of petrol makes it more fuel efficient.

                        Very low: Sherman, Lee
                        Low: PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw 38(t), BT-5/7, IS-2
                        Moderate: Tiger I, PzKpfw III, S-35, Type 97, Churchill, Cromwell, Matilda II, Valentine
                        High: Panther, Crusader, M13/etc, KV-1/2
                        Very high: Char B1, Tiger II
                        There are some people who will be frothing at the mouth at this choice...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cougar1 View Post
                          I chose the T-34 over the Sherman. Both are excellent and reliable tanks, but the T-34's use of a diesel instead of petrol makes it more fuel efficient.

                          Very low: Sherman, Lee
                          Low: PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw 38(t), BT-5/7, IS-2
                          Moderate: Tiger I, PzKpfw III, S-35, Type 97, Churchill, Cromwell, Matilda II, Valentine
                          High: Panther, Crusader, M13/etc, KV-1/2
                          Very high: Char B1, Tiger II
                          Thanks, Dante. All on the sheet now.
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            M4 is my standard. It is truly amazing the job the U.S. did in keeping this tank running in the field when you consider the number of models fielded.

                            Very low- (24) - M3,Valentine, Pz38T, BT-5/7
                            Low (18)- T-34, PzIV, PzIII,Cromwell,
                            Moderate - IS-II, Churchill, Somua, Char B1, Type 97
                            High(6)- KV-1, M-13/14, Matilda II
                            Very high (0) - Tiger II, Panther, Tiger, Crusader
                            John

                            Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JBark View Post
                              M4 is my standard. It is truly amazing the job the U.S. did in keeping this tank running in the field when you consider the number of models fielded.

                              Very low- (24) - M3,Valentine, Pz38T, BT-5/7
                              Low (18)- T-34, PzIV, PzIII,Cromwell,
                              Moderate - IS-II, Churchill, Somua, Char B1, Type 97
                              High(6)- KV-1, M-13/14, Matilda II
                              Very high (0) - Tiger II, Panther, Tiger, Crusader
                              Thanks John, got 'em.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment

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