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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    I think the M13/40 is a little hard done by as it (and the related M14/41 & M15/42) was the workhorse for the Axis in the desert. It was certainly a match for the Crusader, even if the armour quality was rubbish. With over 2000 of all three types made, it can't be that bad.
    I think the M 13-40 gets it tough in quite a few of these polls. It was no great tank by any stretch but IMO it was in some respectes not as bad as many seem to think. In 1941 the armament was quite respectable.

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  • broderickwells
    replied
    I think the M13/40 is a little hard done by as it (and the related M14/41 & M15/42) was the workhorse for the Axis in the desert. It was certainly a match for the Crusader, even if the armour quality was rubbish. With over 2000 of all three types made, it can't be that bad.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Final Scores for 'Value to Allied/Axis Cause'

    Final Scores for the 'Value to Allied/Axis Cause' poll:

    1st - M4 Medium (27.4)
    2nd - T-34 (27.2)
    3rd - PzKpfw IV (25.7)
    4th - PzKpfw III (22.9)
    5th - Churchill (20)
    6th - Panther (18)
    7th - Valentine (17.8)
    Equal 8th - PzKpfw 38(t) and Tiger I (17.3)
    9th - IS-2 (17.2)
    10th - Matilda II (15.6)
    11th - M3 Medium (14.1)
    12th - KV-1 (13.6)
    13th - Cromwell (11.9)
    14th - BT-5/7 (11.2)
    15th - Somua S-35 (9.7)
    16th - Type 97 (8.7)
    17th - Char B-1 bis (6.6)
    18th - Crusader (5.9)
    19th - M 13-40 (5.2)
    20th - Tiger II (3.3)


    Comments:

    That the M4 and T-34 should be vying for top spot here, is obvious IMO. PzKpfw IV in third slot also pretty much a given, I think. After that it becomes gradually more shades of grey to me but I think Tiger II at the bottom is a fair call, given the results the Germans got from it vs the cost of manufacturing, deploying, supplying and maintaining it.

    Waddaya say, guys?
    Last edited by panther3485; 12 Aug 12, 09:00.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    Hi Exorcist,

    I have arranged your placings for Value to Allied/Axis Cause as follows:

    Very High (24 points) M4 Medium, Tiger I, PzKpfw IV, IS-2
    Good (18 points) Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III
    Reasonable (12 points) Panther, Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t)
    Doubtful (6 points) Tiger II, Type 97, KV-1, M3 Medium
    Poor (0 points) Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13/40, BT-5/7

    This was just done 'donkey fashion' i.e. by putting four tanks into each of the five brackets, strictly in the order you have listed them. As it is quite possible you would wish to change some of these up or down a bracket, could you please let me know within the next 2-3 days - before the polls close. In the meantime, this is what's entered on the spreadsheet against your name for this particular poll.

    Thanks,
    p3485
    Exorcist,

    I am in the early stages of collating the figures and I can still accept any amendments you wish to make over this weekend, if you have particular preferences.

    Also, I would like to thank you for participating in 8 of the 12 polls and providing full Level 2 scores in most of those. Regarding the 4 polls where you did not participate, I will apply the averages from the other Level 2 participants to determine your scores.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    Hi Exorcist,

    The brackets for the remaining 20 tanks in this particular poll are:

    Very High (24 points)
    Good (18 points)
    Reasonable (12 points)
    Doubtful (6 points)
    Poor (0 points)

    I was able to record your #1 vote for the T-34, giving it 30 points.

    However, so I can record your secondary scores, could you please arrange the remaining tanks into the brackets I've shown here. Thanks.
    Hi Exorcist,

    I have arranged your placings for Value to Allied/Axis Cause as follows:

    Very High (24 points) M4 Medium, Tiger I, PzKpfw IV, IS-2
    Good (18 points) Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III
    Reasonable (12 points) Panther, Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t)
    Doubtful (6 points) Tiger II, Type 97, KV-1, M3 Medium
    Poor (0 points) Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13/40, BT-5/7

    This was just done 'donkey fashion' i.e. by putting four tanks into each of the five brackets, strictly in the order you have listed them. As it is quite possible you would wish to change some of these up or down a bracket, could you please let me know within the next 2-3 days - before the polls close. In the meantime, this is what's entered on the spreadsheet against your name for this particular poll.

    Thanks,
    p3485
    Last edited by panther3485; 28 Jul 12, 13:53.

    Leave a comment:


  • tacticallysound
    replied
    I can see why the M4 and T-34 are neck and neck in terms of votes.

    I picked the T-34, because it was available earlier in the war, it was back-bone of the Red Army tank armies, which engaged more German armor than the Allies/Shermans, and it was also produced in great #s.

    The T-34 was the main tank that switched the German industry from making relatively cheap light/medium tanks suited to blitzkrieg/fast movement to the very expensive medium/heavy tanks suited primarily suited to defense.

    In my opinion, building more aircraft and panzer IV tanks would have been better than producing Tigers/Panthers/Tiger II/etc. But the shocking revolutionary designs found on T-34 provoked them to go for heavy tank designs.

    If I were the Germans, I would upgrade my panzer IV's to the ausf h version, but no more than that. With more planes in the air, it will take longer for the allies to maintain the air supremacy that decimated so many tanks, it also means the Germans can maintain air supremacy longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by dutched View Post
    Hello Paul,

    The M13/40M14/41M15/42 should be at position 14.
    That will mean that the IS-2 should be at postition 15.

    A bit sloppy of me sorry. All out of sackcloth, but still plenty of ashes.

    Ed.
    Thanks Ed, all sorted.

    Leave a comment:


  • dutched
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    Thanks Ed. Your primary vote for T-34 has been noted and entered.

    However, at present based on what you have here, your placings appear as follows:

    2 (28.5) M4 Medium
    3 (27) PzKpfw III
    4 (25.5) Valentine
    5 (24) PzKpfw IV
    6 (22.5) BT-5/7
    7 (21) Panther
    8 (19.5) M3 Medium
    9 (18) Churchill
    10 (16.5) Crusader
    11 (15) PzKpfw 38(t)
    12 (13.5) KV-1
    13 (12) Cromwell
    14 (10.5) IS-2 and M 13-40
    15 (9) ????????
    16 (7.5) Matilda II
    17 (6) Tiger I
    18 (4.5) Type 97 Chi-Ha
    19 (3) Tiger II
    20 (1.5) Somua S-35
    21 (0) Char B1 Bis

    Would you like me to enter the M 13-40 at position 15? Or the IS-2?
    Hello Paul,

    The M13/40M14/41M15/42 should be at position 14.
    That will mean that the IS-2 should be at postition 15.

    A bit sloppy of me sorry. All out of sackcloth, but still plenty of ashes.

    Ed.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Thanks Ed. Your primary vote for T-34 has been noted and entered.

    However, at present based on what you have here, your placings appear as follows:

    2 (28.5) M4 Medium
    3 (27) PzKpfw III
    4 (25.5) Valentine
    5 (24) PzKpfw IV
    6 (22.5) BT-5/7
    7 (21) Panther
    8 (19.5) M3 Medium
    9 (18) Churchill
    10 (16.5) Crusader
    11 (15) PzKpfw 38(t)
    12 (13.5) KV-1
    13 (12) Cromwell
    14 (10.5) IS-2 and M 13-40
    15 (9) ????????
    16 (7.5) Matilda II
    17 (6) Tiger I
    18 (4.5) Type 97 Chi-Ha
    19 (3) Tiger II
    20 (1.5) Somua S-35
    21 (0) Char B1 Bis

    Would you like me to enter the M 13-40 at position 15? Or the IS-2?

    Leave a comment:


  • dutched
    replied
    Tops T 34

    16 Matilda II
    10 Crusader
    09 Churchill
    04 Valentine
    13 Cromwell
    20 Somua S-35
    21 Char B 1 bis
    11 PzKpfw 38(t)
    03 PzKpfw III
    05 PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined)
    17 Tiger I
    07 Panther
    19 Tiger 2
    14 M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    18 Type 97 Chi-Ha
    06 BT-5/7
    12 KV-1
    14 IS-2
    08 M3 Medium
    02 M4 Medium (all versions combined)

    The reasoning behind this listing is a bit simple, but pertinent.
    General availability when required, sometimes the army just has to make do with what we now might consider a piece of junk.

    Ed.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    My benchmark/champion against this criterion is the Sherman.

    The rest, using the incremental scale, as follows:

    2 (28.5) T-34
    3 (27) PzKpfw IV
    4 (25.5) Churchill
    5 (24) PzKpfw III
    6 (22.5) PzKpfw 38(t)
    7 (21) M3 Medium
    8 (19.5) Tiger I
    9 (18) Valentine
    10 (16.5) Cromwell
    11 (15) Panther
    12 (13.5) IS-2
    13 (12) Matilda II
    14 (10.5) KV-1
    15 (9) BT-5/7
    16 (7.5) Type 97
    17 (6) M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    18 (4.5) Crusader
    19 (3) Tiger II
    20 (1.5) Char B-1 bis
    21 (0) Somua S-35

    Last edited by panther3485; 18 Jun 12, 06:36.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Thanks Neil, recorded now.

    Leave a comment:


  • 97th Foot
    replied
    Voted: M4.

    Very High: Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, T34.

    Good: Churchill, Matilda II, Panther.

    Reasonable: Cromwell, Somua S-35, M3, KV-1, IS-2, Tiger I.

    Doubtful: Type 97, BT-5/7, M13-40/14-41/15-42.

    Poor: Crusader, Char B-1 bis, Tiger II.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
    Now, this is the way the question should have been asked!

    I voted for the M4 Sherman, but the T-34 would have been a close second. The Germans, of course, screwed up and lost, but on the way to losing, the Mk IV was probably the tank that helped to keep things afloat the longest for them.

    So, I think this poll got things just about right.
    Thanks Ogukuo, your vote for the Sherman has been recorded. I hope you enjoy the other 11 polls just as much, or more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ogukuo72
    replied
    Now, this is the way the question should have been asked!

    I voted for the M4 Sherman, but the T-34 would have been a close second. The Germans, of course, screwed up and lost, but on the way to losing, the Mk IV was probably the tank that helped to keep things afloat the longest for them.

    So, I think this poll got things just about right.

    Leave a comment:

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