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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    Oops .

    Can I raise the 38t and Churchill to very high. Thanks.

    Also one suggestion. People who only vote for best, and do not include marks for others, will skew the results, and possibly ruin all your hard work. There may be a tank that many people think is good across the board, but not the best in any one category (the PzIV comes to mind). That tank may come behind another simply because that other is good in one category, and really not a better tank in WW2 overall. May I suggest anyone who does not supply marks for the rest not have their best included on your spreadsheet.
    I don't want to do that, Nick, because it'll discourage too many members from participating. I want all participants to feel welcome, ranging from those who prefer simply to 'jump in, vote and jump out' all the way through to guys like us who like to delve fully into the details and will score every single tank.

    In that connection though, I do have an alternative solution already devised before the polls started, and now suitably adapted, which should allay your concerns at least to a reasonable degree. It' simple to the point of crudeness but it'll substantially dampen out the potential 'points void' you have mentioned.

    To start with, have you read my post #1 on the 'master' thread since I heavily amended it a day or so back? Some very important changes have been made, in particular to encourage those who do indeed only wish to vote for their #1 against each criterion. If you haven't seen it since the changes, please go and have a look now:

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=122093

    ... and if the method I intend to use isn't apparent and clear after you've read that, please get back to me and I can elaborate further.

    Suffice to say, every tank will get a score on all of the criteria, against the name of every participant.


    Edit: Oh, and btw - you can change any of your scores, any time you like if you change your mind about something, right up until, say maybe the beginning of the last week when I'll be doing some VERY serious collating. Just ask.

    The only thing I can't change for a member is their primary vote on each thread (the tank they voted #1 using the ACG poll function). However, even that can be changed on my spreadsheet and it's the spreadsheet result that's going to be our final indicator.

    I have just changed your scores for Churchill and 38(t), to 'Very High - 24 points' as requested.
    Last edited by panther3485; 29 Apr 12, 11:06.

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    Thanks Martin, all recorded.

    Just a quick point on this particular criterion (and for everyone else to consider if they may have forgotten). This is one of the few places in the polls where I'd encourage members to think beyond 1st line use as a gun tank. Value to User Nations and Allied/Axis Cause is also intended to include the benefits of other uses of the same basic chassis; such as tank destroyers, SP guns etc; to capture the full value of the type. Indeed, there's one tank I can think of out of these 21 that was arguably of at least equal if not more value in such secondary roles, than in its original gun tank role. Hint: This means you might want to slightly re-think the PzKpfw 38(t), for example. Just a suggestion though, you can leave everything this way if you want to. Just let me know if you want to make any adjustments.

    Oops .

    Can I raise the 38t and Churchill to very high. Thanks.

    Also one suggestion. People who only vote for best, and do not include marks for others, will skew the results, and possibly ruin all your hard work. There may be a tank that many people think is good across the board, but not the best in any one category (the PzIV comes to mind). That tank may come behind another simply because that other is good in one category, and really not a better tank in WW2 overall. May I suggest anyone who does not supply marks for the rest not have their best included on your spreadsheet.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by wellsfargo View Post
    9. Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause (30) Panther

    Very high (24) Tiger I T-34 PzKpfw IV PzKpfe III IS-2 M4

    Good (18) Kv-1 BT 5/7 Churchill Matilda II Valentine Char B-1

    Reasonable (12) M3 Somua S35 Type 97 Cromwell

    Doubtful (6) Tiger II PzKpfw 38T

    Poor (0) M13-14 Crusader

    “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
    Thanks Martin, all recorded.

    Just a quick point on this particular criterion (and for everyone else to consider if they may have forgotten). This is one of the few places in the polls where I'd encourage members to think beyond 1st line use as a gun tank. Value to User Nations and Allied/Axis Cause is also intended to include the benefits of other uses of the same basic chassis; such as tank destroyers, SP guns etc; to capture the full value of the type. Indeed, there's one tank I can think of out of these 21 that was arguably of at least equal if not more value in such secondary roles, than in its original gun tank role. Hint: This means you might want to slightly re-think the PzKpfw 38(t), for example. Just a suggestion though, you can leave everything this way if you want to. Just let me know if you want to make any adjustments.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    And my vote puts the T-34 even with Sherman, so on with the ratings;

    Excellent (36 points)T-34, Sherman, Tiger 1, PzKpfw IV, IS-2, M4 Medium

    Good (24 points)Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III, Panther


    OK (12 points)Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), Tiger II, Type 97 Chi-Ha, KV-1, M3 Medium

    Poor (0 points)Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7,

    Dollar for value earned, that's how I see it.
    Hi Exorcist,

    The brackets for the remaining 20 tanks in this particular poll are:

    Very High (24 points)
    Good (18 points)
    Reasonable (12 points)
    Doubtful (6 points)
    Poor (0 points)

    I was able to record your #1 vote for the T-34, giving it 30 points.

    However, so I can record your secondary scores, could you please arrange the remaining tanks into the brackets I've shown here. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by smallvillekalel View Post
    Winner---T-34


    2 (28.5)PzIV
    3 (27)M4 Sherman
    4 (25.5)Tiger I
    5 (24)Churchill
    6 (22.5)PzIII
    7 (21)Matilda II
    8 (19.5)38t
    9 (18)Panther
    10 (16.5)M3 Grant
    11 (15)KV-1
    12 (13.5)Valentine
    13 (12)BT-7
    14 (10.5)S-35
    15 (9)IS-2
    16 (7.5)Crusader
    17 (6)Cromwell
    18 (4.5)Type-97
    19 (3)M-13/14/15
    20 (1.5)Tiger II
    21 (0)Char B1 bis


    The T-34 wins with the PzIV and Sherman neck and neck, I gave it to the Pz IV due to its longevity. I gave the King Tiger a low score, because the third reich needed a vehicle which could do more on their limited fuel stocks. The King Tiger made the problem worse. And last but not least, the CharB gets the basement call because the French had the best tank of the campaign in the west, and relied on its ability to stop the panzers waay too heavily. Maybe if they weren't so confident in this mediocre tank there would have been signifigant changes made to force dispositions. Just a thought anyway.
    Thanks David, scores recorded.

    Leave a comment:


  • wellsfargo
    replied
    9. Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause (30) Panther

    Very high (24) Tiger I T-34 PzKpfw IV PzKpfe III IS-2 M4

    Good (18) Kv-1 BT 5/7 Churchill Matilda II Valentine Char B-1

    Reasonable (12) M3 Somua S35 Type 97 Cromwell

    Doubtful (6) Tiger II PzKpfw 38T

    Poor (0) M13-14 Crusader

    “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Looks like Firepower is locked in and accurate

    And my vote puts the T-34 even with Sherman, so on with the ratings;

    Excellent (36 points)T-34, Sherman, Tiger 1, PzKpfw IV, IS-2, M4 Medium

    Good (24 points)Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III, Panther


    OK (12 points)Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), Tiger II, Type 97 Chi-Ha, KV-1, M3 Medium

    Poor (0 points)Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7,

    Dollar for value earned, that's how I see it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    What - Churchill only good - what about Hobart's Funnies?
    Touche!

    I voted here basically on numbers employed in relative timelines. Further, while I believe the Churchill is the best overall tank of WW2, I don't want to place it top, or even next to top, if I cannot justify that position in any segment.

    In Italy I could place the Churchill easily at the top. In NWE it becomes a bit more difficult to do so. On the Eastern front, it was far better in many ways than the Soviet machines in 1943, but too few and too complicated.

    Leave a comment:


  • broderickwells
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    Went M4 Sherman. although if Japan was not included I would have gone T-34.

    Very high (24) T-34, Pz III and IV.
    Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
    Reasonable (12) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther, M3 Medium
    Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
    What - Churchill only good - what about Hobart's Funnies?

    Leave a comment:


  • smallvillekalel
    replied
    Winner---T-34


    2 (28.5)PzIV
    3 (27)M4 Sherman
    4 (25.5)Tiger I
    5 (24)Churchill
    6 (22.5)PzIII
    7 (21)Matilda II
    8 (19.5)38t
    9 (18)Panther
    10 (16.5)M3 Grant
    11 (15)KV-1
    12 (13.5)Valentine
    13 (12)BT-7
    14 (10.5)S-35
    15 (9)IS-2
    16 (7.5)Crusader
    17 (6)Cromwell
    18 (4.5)Type-97
    19 (3)M-13/14/15
    20 (1.5)Tiger II
    21 (0)Char B1 bis


    The T-34 wins with the PzIV and Sherman neck and neck, I gave it to the Pz IV due to its longevity. I gave the King Tiger a low score, because the third reich needed a vehicle which could do more on their limited fuel stocks. The King Tiger made the problem worse. And last but not least, the CharB gets the basement call because the French had the best tank of the campaign in the west, and relied on its ability to stop the panzers waay too heavily. Maybe if they weren't so confident in this mediocre tank there would have been signifigant changes made to force dispositions. Just a thought anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    I can't see anything that should be re-assigned "Good". They were either worthwhile and persisted with, or semi-shyte and dropped or superseded.
    OK brod, that's fine. I'll leave all the figures as they are.

    Leave a comment:


  • broderickwells
    replied
    I can't see anything that should be re-assigned "Good". They were either worthwhile and persisted with, or semi-shyte and dropped or superseded.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    Benchmark: PzKpfw IV, T-34, M4 Medium

    Very High: Valentine, Churchill, PzKpfw III, Panther, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t),

    Reasonable: M3 Medium, KV-1, Matilda II, Tiger I, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Crusader

    Doubtful: Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, BT-5/7

    Poor: Char B1 bis, Tiger II

    This is one of the few deadheats I’ll admit: For the Axis, the PzKpfw IV was a critical tank and provided the chassis for many other vehicles. For the Red Army, the T-34 fulfilled the same position. For the Western Allies, it was the M4 medium, though the basic chassis was derived from the M-3 medium.

    The Very High group saw prolonged service or were replacements for earlier types. The IS-2 was the basis for two very useful SP guns, and the PzKpfw 38(t) also spawned a pile of SP guns and similar AFVs.

    The Reasonable group had their uses. The Italian tanks were the basis of some very handy SP guns which the Germans took as many as they could get.

    The Doubtful group were either too old, too weak or not available for long enough or large enough numbers to make a difference.

    That applies even moreso to the Poor.
    Thanks brod.

    You had a whole bracket missing from your scores; doubt if that was intentional? Also, I can only put one tank into the 'champion' ('benchmark') slot because that's all the poll set-up allows for. You voted for the T-34 so that has to be the one.

    Based on your post, I distributed the remaining 20 tanks on to the spreadsheet as follows:

    Very high (24) - Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, Panther, IS-2, M4

    Good (18) - no tanks assigned to this bracket???

    Reasonable (12) - Matilda II, Crusader, Tiger I, M 13-40, KV-1, M3

    Doubtful (6) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Type 97, BT-5/7

    Poor (0) - Char B-1 bis, Tiger II

    ... however, my guess is your missed bracket was indeed unintentional so please let me know what you want changed.
    Last edited by panther3485; 26 Apr 12, 10:13.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    Went M4 Sherman. although if Japan was not included I would have gone T-34.

    Very high (24) T-34, Pz III and IV.
    Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
    Reasonable (12) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther, M3 Medium
    Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
    Thanks Nick. All recorded.

    Leave a comment:


  • broderickwells
    replied
    Benchmark: PzKpfw IV, T-34, M4 Medium

    Very High: Valentine, Churchill, PzKpfw III, Panther, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t),

    Reasonable: M3 Medium, KV-1, Matilda II, Tiger I, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Crusader

    Doubtful: Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, BT-5/7

    Poor: Char B1 bis, Tiger II

    This is one of the few deadheats I’ll admit: For the Axis, the PzKpfw IV was a critical tank and provided the chassis for many other vehicles. For the Red Army, the T-34 fulfilled the same position. For the Western Allies, it was the M4 medium, though the basic chassis was derived from the M-3 medium.

    The Very High group saw prolonged service or were replacements for earlier types. The IS-2 was the basis for two very useful SP guns, and the PzKpfw 38(t) also spawned a pile of SP guns and similar AFVs.

    The Reasonable group had their uses. The Italian tanks were the basis of some very handy SP guns which the Germans took as many as they could get.

    The Doubtful group were either too old, too weak or not available for long enough or large enough numbers to make a difference.

    That applies even moreso to the Poor.

    Leave a comment:

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