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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • #46
    I considered the MK IV as well, it was just as versatile as the M4 with a large number of variants, adaptations, upgrades and multiple roles. I put the M4 slightly ahead of it but ultimately had to go with the T34. It was the war winner in THE decisive theater, tough to argue beyond that. The MK IV and T34 get extra recognition for being able to perform without the lavish support afforded to the M4 also.
    "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
    -Omar Bradley
    "Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
    -Anonymous US Army logistician

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Javaman View Post
      I considered the MK IV as well, it was just as versatile as the M4 with a large number of variants, adaptations, upgrades and multiple roles. I put the M4 slightly ahead of it but ultimately had to go with the T34. It was the war winner in THE decisive theater, tough to argue beyond that. The MK IV and T34 get extra recognition for being able to perform without the lavish support afforded to the M4 also.
      I would consider the M4 much more versatile, its turret ring allowing for the guns (moreso than the MkIV) it carried just one example. I understand what you mean by decisive theatre but there were some skirmishes going on in Africa, Italy and France as well. Oh, and that other one in th south Pacific. Thats seeing a lot of war frontage.

      I wouldn't penalize the support system the US was able to provide unless you are going to also penalize Germany for being so close to their support and being able to send tanks back home for overhaul. Hell, most of the time the M4 didn't need the support.
      John

      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

      Comment


      • #48
        The T-34 saw alot more action against the axis than the Sherman. In the context of value to allied cause that should mean alot. Likewise the PzIV saw more action than both. I based my winner of these top three choices on the fact that T-34 effected the outcome of more battles.
        "In the absence of orders...find something and kill it!" Lt. General Erwin Rommel, 1942

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        • #49
          Now, this is the way the question should have been asked!

          I voted for the M4 Sherman, but the T-34 would have been a close second. The Germans, of course, screwed up and lost, but on the way to losing, the Mk IV was probably the tank that helped to keep things afloat the longest for them.

          So, I think this poll got things just about right.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
            Now, this is the way the question should have been asked!

            I voted for the M4 Sherman, but the T-34 would have been a close second. The Germans, of course, screwed up and lost, but on the way to losing, the Mk IV was probably the tank that helped to keep things afloat the longest for them.

            So, I think this poll got things just about right.
            Thanks Ogukuo, your vote for the Sherman has been recorded. I hope you enjoy the other 11 polls just as much, or more.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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            • #51
              Voted: M4.

              Very High: Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, T34.

              Good: Churchill, Matilda II, Panther.

              Reasonable: Cromwell, Somua S-35, M3, KV-1, IS-2, Tiger I.

              Doubtful: Type 97, BT-5/7, M13-40/14-41/15-42.

              Poor: Crusader, Char B-1 bis, Tiger II.

              Comment


              • #52
                Thanks Neil, recorded now.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                • #53
                  My benchmark/champion against this criterion is the Sherman.

                  The rest, using the incremental scale, as follows:

                  2 (28.5) T-34
                  3 (27) PzKpfw IV
                  4 (25.5) Churchill
                  5 (24) PzKpfw III
                  6 (22.5) PzKpfw 38(t)
                  7 (21) M3 Medium
                  8 (19.5) Tiger I
                  9 (18) Valentine
                  10 (16.5) Cromwell
                  11 (15) Panther
                  12 (13.5) IS-2
                  13 (12) Matilda II
                  14 (10.5) KV-1
                  15 (9) BT-5/7
                  16 (7.5) Type 97
                  17 (6) M 13-40/14-41/15-42
                  18 (4.5) Crusader
                  19 (3) Tiger II
                  20 (1.5) Char B-1 bis
                  21 (0) Somua S-35

                  Last edited by panther3485; 18 Jun 12, 06:36.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Tops T 34

                    16 Matilda II
                    10 Crusader
                    09 Churchill
                    04 Valentine
                    13 Cromwell
                    20 Somua S-35
                    21 Char B 1 bis
                    11 PzKpfw 38(t)
                    03 PzKpfw III
                    05 PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined)
                    17 Tiger I
                    07 Panther
                    19 Tiger 2
                    14 M 13-40/14-41/15-42
                    18 Type 97 Chi-Ha
                    06 BT-5/7
                    12 KV-1
                    14 IS-2
                    08 M3 Medium
                    02 M4 Medium (all versions combined)

                    The reasoning behind this listing is a bit simple, but pertinent.
                    General availability when required, sometimes the army just has to make do with what we now might consider a piece of junk.

                    Ed.
                    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Thanks Ed. Your primary vote for T-34 has been noted and entered.

                      However, at present based on what you have here, your placings appear as follows:

                      2 (28.5) M4 Medium
                      3 (27) PzKpfw III
                      4 (25.5) Valentine
                      5 (24) PzKpfw IV
                      6 (22.5) BT-5/7
                      7 (21) Panther
                      8 (19.5) M3 Medium
                      9 (18) Churchill
                      10 (16.5) Crusader
                      11 (15) PzKpfw 38(t)
                      12 (13.5) KV-1
                      13 (12) Cromwell
                      14 (10.5) IS-2 and M 13-40
                      15 (9) ????????
                      16 (7.5) Matilda II
                      17 (6) Tiger I
                      18 (4.5) Type 97 Chi-Ha
                      19 (3) Tiger II
                      20 (1.5) Somua S-35
                      21 (0) Char B1 Bis

                      Would you like me to enter the M 13-40 at position 15? Or the IS-2?
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                        Thanks Ed. Your primary vote for T-34 has been noted and entered.

                        However, at present based on what you have here, your placings appear as follows:

                        2 (28.5) M4 Medium
                        3 (27) PzKpfw III
                        4 (25.5) Valentine
                        5 (24) PzKpfw IV
                        6 (22.5) BT-5/7
                        7 (21) Panther
                        8 (19.5) M3 Medium
                        9 (18) Churchill
                        10 (16.5) Crusader
                        11 (15) PzKpfw 38(t)
                        12 (13.5) KV-1
                        13 (12) Cromwell
                        14 (10.5) IS-2 and M 13-40
                        15 (9) ????????
                        16 (7.5) Matilda II
                        17 (6) Tiger I
                        18 (4.5) Type 97 Chi-Ha
                        19 (3) Tiger II
                        20 (1.5) Somua S-35
                        21 (0) Char B1 Bis

                        Would you like me to enter the M 13-40 at position 15? Or the IS-2?
                        Hello Paul,

                        The M13/40M14/41M15/42 should be at position 14.
                        That will mean that the IS-2 should be at postition 15.

                        A bit sloppy of me sorry. All out of sackcloth, but still plenty of ashes.

                        Ed.
                        The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by dutched View Post
                          Hello Paul,

                          The M13/40M14/41M15/42 should be at position 14.
                          That will mean that the IS-2 should be at postition 15.

                          A bit sloppy of me sorry. All out of sackcloth, but still plenty of ashes.

                          Ed.
                          Thanks Ed, all sorted.
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I can see why the M4 and T-34 are neck and neck in terms of votes.

                            I picked the T-34, because it was available earlier in the war, it was back-bone of the Red Army tank armies, which engaged more German armor than the Allies/Shermans, and it was also produced in great #s.

                            The T-34 was the main tank that switched the German industry from making relatively cheap light/medium tanks suited to blitzkrieg/fast movement to the very expensive medium/heavy tanks suited primarily suited to defense.

                            In my opinion, building more aircraft and panzer IV tanks would have been better than producing Tigers/Panthers/Tiger II/etc. But the shocking revolutionary designs found on T-34 provoked them to go for heavy tank designs.

                            If I were the Germans, I would upgrade my panzer IV's to the ausf h version, but no more than that. With more planes in the air, it will take longer for the allies to maintain the air supremacy that decimated so many tanks, it also means the Germans can maintain air supremacy longer.
                            If playing Donkey Kong, am I also playing Ass Kong?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              Hi Exorcist,

                              The brackets for the remaining 20 tanks in this particular poll are:

                              Very High (24 points)
                              Good (18 points)
                              Reasonable (12 points)
                              Doubtful (6 points)
                              Poor (0 points)

                              I was able to record your #1 vote for the T-34, giving it 30 points.

                              However, so I can record your secondary scores, could you please arrange the remaining tanks into the brackets I've shown here. Thanks.
                              Hi Exorcist,

                              I have arranged your placings for Value to Allied/Axis Cause as follows:

                              Very High (24 points) M4 Medium, Tiger I, PzKpfw IV, IS-2
                              Good (18 points) Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III
                              Reasonable (12 points) Panther, Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t)
                              Doubtful (6 points) Tiger II, Type 97, KV-1, M3 Medium
                              Poor (0 points) Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13/40, BT-5/7

                              This was just done 'donkey fashion' i.e. by putting four tanks into each of the five brackets, strictly in the order you have listed them. As it is quite possible you would wish to change some of these up or down a bracket, could you please let me know within the next 2-3 days - before the polls close. In the meantime, this is what's entered on the spreadsheet against your name for this particular poll.

                              Thanks,
                              p3485
                              Last edited by panther3485; 28 Jul 12, 13:53.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                                Hi Exorcist,

                                I have arranged your placings for Value to Allied/Axis Cause as follows:

                                Very High (24 points) M4 Medium, Tiger I, PzKpfw IV, IS-2
                                Good (18 points) Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III
                                Reasonable (12 points) Panther, Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t)
                                Doubtful (6 points) Tiger II, Type 97, KV-1, M3 Medium
                                Poor (0 points) Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13/40, BT-5/7

                                This was just done 'donkey fashion' i.e. by putting four tanks into each of the five brackets, strictly in the order you have listed them. As it is quite possible you would wish to change some of these up or down a bracket, could you please let me know within the next 2-3 days - before the polls close. In the meantime, this is what's entered on the spreadsheet against your name for this particular poll.

                                Thanks,
                                p3485
                                Exorcist,

                                I am in the early stages of collating the figures and I can still accept any amendments you wish to make over this weekend, if you have particular preferences.

                                Also, I would like to thank you for participating in 8 of the 12 polls and providing full Level 2 scores in most of those. Regarding the 4 polls where you did not participate, I will apply the averages from the other Level 2 participants to determine your scores.
                                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                                Comment

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