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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • #31
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    And French
    French is there. French is way too important to me to be left out (I married a French woman.)
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
      I guess if he can say English and english, he might just as easily say French and french. (Pssssstttt!!! Take another look at his post, brod. )
      My thinking was English was spoken by...the English, and english by those other folks,,,Americans, Canadians, Aussies.
      John

      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JBark View Post
        My thinking was English was spoken by...the English, and english by those other folks,,,Americans, Canadians, Aussies.
        Yep, you got that right enough.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #34
          M4 will get the top vote for me in this category. Looking at the criteria:

          Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
          Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
          Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
          Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
          Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
          Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
          Overall impact

          It was well designed for its intended purpose; was able to be upgunned and uparmored to a greater degree than perhaps any other WW2 tank; served on the front lines from 1942 onward; was used in other roles as a tank (e.g., indirect artillery, amphibious assault, flamethrower, etc.) and lent its components to tank destroyers (M10 and M36), self-propelled artillery (M7B1, M7B2, M40, M43), recovery vehicles (M32, M74), etc.; almost 50,000 tanks were built not including other types of vehicles based on the M4 chassis; the tank served with essentially all of the Allies in all theaters and turned into the most numerous British tank of the war.

          And for the rest I'll be able to copy Nick's list with just a couple of adjustments:

          Very high (24) T-34, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV
          Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), medium tank M3, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
          Reasonable (12) - BT-5/7, Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther
          Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
          Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
            M4 will get the top vote for me in this category. Looking at the criteria:

            Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
            Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
            Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
            Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
            Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
            Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
            Overall impact

            It was well designed for its intended purpose; was able to be upgunned and uparmored to a greater degree than perhaps any other WW2 tank; served on the front lines from 1942 onward; was used in other roles as a tank (e.g., indirect artillery, amphibious assault, flamethrower, etc.) and lent its components to tank destroyers (M10 and M36), self-propelled artillery (M7B1, M7B2, M40, M43), recovery vehicles (M32, M74), etc.; almost 50,000 tanks were built not including other types of vehicles based on the M4 chassis; the tank served with essentially all of the Allies in all theaters and turned into the most numerous British tank of the war.

            And for the rest I'll be able to copy Nick's list with just a couple of adjustments:

            Very high (24) T-34, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV
            Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), medium tank M3, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
            Reasonable (12) - BT-5/7, Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther
            Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
            Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
            Thanks, Chris. All recorded.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
              M4 will get the top vote for me in this category. Looking at the criteria:

              Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
              Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
              Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
              Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
              Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
              Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
              Overall impact

              It was well designed for its intended purpose; was able to be upgunned and uparmored to a greater degree than perhaps any other WW2 tank; served on the front lines from 1942 onward; was used in other roles as a tank (e.g., indirect artillery, amphibious assault, flamethrower, etc.) and lent its components to tank destroyers (M10 and M36), self-propelled artillery (M7B1, M7B2, M40, M43), recovery vehicles (M32, M74), etc.; almost 50,000 tanks were built not including other types of vehicles based on the M4 chassis; the tank served with essentially all of the Allies in all theaters and turned into the most numerous British tank of the war.

              And for the rest I'll be able to copy Nick's list with just a couple of adjustments:

              Very high (24) T-34, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV
              Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), medium tank M3, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
              Reasonable (12) - BT-5/7, Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther
              Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
              Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
              Damn well put. Once again I am moved to tears.
              John

              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

              Comment


              • #37
                I had to vote for the M4 on this one. It served from Africa all the way through the war and then some time after. I realize that the chassis was essentially the M3, however, a 360 degree turret makes all the difference.
                The 75mm gun wasn't the greatest gun, although it was a very good one. It had decent anti armor numbers and the HE was very good. Later on, the inclusion of the 76mm gun made it a dangerous tank for the Axis at longer ranges than the 75mm gun versions. The British put 17pdr in it and made it one of the most lethal tanks in the field.
                The M4 chassis also served as the platform for the M10 TD which at the time, had the hardest hitting US gun out there. I would say the chassis for the M7 Priest also, however, I think those were actually on an M3 chassis.
                The numbers that were produced is another factor for my vote. Not only were parts and availability there, they were lend/leased to two other big players. The Russians loved them compared to the T-34's for the comfort and ergonomics of them. I am not saying that the T-34 wasn't a good tank, just that the Sherman was better IMO.
                "You listen to the ol' Pork Chop Express on a dark and stormy night......"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Thanks Chad, recorded now.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.

                    Very High: T34, M4, Tiger I, PzKpfw III, Panther.

                    Good: KV1, IS2, M3, Churchill, Valentine, Matilda II, PzKpfw 38 (t).

                    Reasonable: Crusader, Cromwell, Somua S-35, CharB, BT 5/7.

                    Poor: Tiger II, M13-40, Type 97.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                      I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.

                      Very High: T34, M4, Tiger I, PzKpfw III, Panther.

                      Good: KV1, IS2, M3, Churchill, Valentine, Matilda II, PzKpfw 38 (t).

                      Reasonable: Crusader, Cromwell, Somua S-35, CharB, BT 5/7.

                      Poor: Tiger II, M13-40, Type 97.
                      Lance, there are 5 rating levels in this poll:

                      Very high (24 points)
                      Good (18 points)
                      Reasonable (12 points)
                      Doubtful (6 points)
                      Poor (0 points)

                      You have nothing in the 'Doubtful' bracket. Was that intentional?
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                        Lance, there are 5 rating levels in this poll:

                        Very high (24 points)
                        Good (18 points)
                        Reasonable (12 points)
                        Doubtful (6 points)
                        Poor (0 points)

                        You have nothing in the 'Doubtful' bracket. Was that intentional?
                        In this case it was, though I'm not sure if the decision was wise or not. I was really waffling about Tiger II, and I suppose it should be moved into the Doubtful category, so I'd appreciate it if you could switch it for me. The others can stay where they are.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                          I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.

                          Very High: T34, M4, Tiger I, PzKpfw III, Panther.
                          ...
                          This is a head scratcher for me...okay......there he is.

                          I would have thought this one to boil down to two choices simply due to numbers. I realize this was a workhorse for the German military but comparing it use to the M4's use everywhere pales, IMO.
                          John

                          Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JBark View Post
                            This is a head scratcher for me...okay......there he is.

                            I would have thought this one to boil down to two choices simply due to numbers. I realize this was a workhorse for the German military but comparing it use to the M4's use everywhere pales, IMO.
                            I'm not debating the value of either the M4 or the T34 in the least. They were vital machines and I had a hard time with this choice simply because they were so important. Maybe I chose incorrectly, I'm not sure, but I think PzKpfw IV was of tremendous value to the German cause and that's what the poll is about. There were not as many IVs produced as M4s and T34s it's true, but the IV and its variants accounted for a big percentage of German armored strength and it served throughout the entire conflict.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                              In this case it was, though I'm not sure if the decision was wise or not. I was really waffling about Tiger II, and I suppose it should be moved into the Doubtful category, so I'd appreciate it if you could switch it for me. The others can stay where they are.
                              OK, done.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by llkinak View Post
                                I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.
                                I voted for the same tank, and for the same reasons. I liked this post.
                                Michele

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