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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • smallvillekalel
    replied
    The T-34 saw alot more action against the axis than the Sherman. In the context of value to allied cause that should mean alot. Likewise the PzIV saw more action than both. I based my winner of these top three choices on the fact that T-34 effected the outcome of more battles.

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  • JBark
    replied
    Originally posted by Javaman View Post
    I considered the MK IV as well, it was just as versatile as the M4 with a large number of variants, adaptations, upgrades and multiple roles. I put the M4 slightly ahead of it but ultimately had to go with the T34. It was the war winner in THE decisive theater, tough to argue beyond that. The MK IV and T34 get extra recognition for being able to perform without the lavish support afforded to the M4 also.
    I would consider the M4 much more versatile, its turret ring allowing for the guns (moreso than the MkIV) it carried just one example. I understand what you mean by decisive theatre but there were some skirmishes going on in Africa, Italy and France as well. Oh, and that other one in th south Pacific. Thats seeing a lot of war frontage.

    I wouldn't penalize the support system the US was able to provide unless you are going to also penalize Germany for being so close to their support and being able to send tanks back home for overhaul. Hell, most of the time the M4 didn't need the support.

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  • Javaman
    replied
    I considered the MK IV as well, it was just as versatile as the M4 with a large number of variants, adaptations, upgrades and multiple roles. I put the M4 slightly ahead of it but ultimately had to go with the T34. It was the war winner in THE decisive theater, tough to argue beyond that. The MK IV and T34 get extra recognition for being able to perform without the lavish support afforded to the M4 also.

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  • Michele
    replied
    Originally posted by llkinak View Post
    I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.
    I voted for the same tank, and for the same reasons. I liked this post.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by llkinak View Post
    In this case it was, though I'm not sure if the decision was wise or not. I was really waffling about Tiger II, and I suppose it should be moved into the Doubtful category, so I'd appreciate it if you could switch it for me. The others can stay where they are.
    OK, done.

    Leave a comment:


  • llkinak
    replied
    Originally posted by JBark View Post
    This is a head scratcher for me...okay......there he is.

    I would have thought this one to boil down to two choices simply due to numbers. I realize this was a workhorse for the German military but comparing it use to the M4's use everywhere pales, IMO.
    I'm not debating the value of either the M4 or the T34 in the least. They were vital machines and I had a hard time with this choice simply because they were so important. Maybe I chose incorrectly, I'm not sure, but I think PzKpfw IV was of tremendous value to the German cause and that's what the poll is about. There were not as many IVs produced as M4s and T34s it's true, but the IV and its variants accounted for a big percentage of German armored strength and it served throughout the entire conflict.

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  • JBark
    replied
    Originally posted by llkinak View Post
    I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.

    Very High: T34, M4, Tiger I, PzKpfw III, Panther.
    ...
    This is a head scratcher for me...okay......there he is.

    I would have thought this one to boil down to two choices simply due to numbers. I realize this was a workhorse for the German military but comparing it use to the M4's use everywhere pales, IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • llkinak
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    Lance, there are 5 rating levels in this poll:

    Very high (24 points)
    Good (18 points)
    Reasonable (12 points)
    Doubtful (6 points)
    Poor (0 points)

    You have nothing in the 'Doubtful' bracket. Was that intentional?
    In this case it was, though I'm not sure if the decision was wise or not. I was really waffling about Tiger II, and I suppose it should be moved into the Doubtful category, so I'd appreciate it if you could switch it for me. The others can stay where they are.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by llkinak View Post
    I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.

    Very High: T34, M4, Tiger I, PzKpfw III, Panther.

    Good: KV1, IS2, M3, Churchill, Valentine, Matilda II, PzKpfw 38 (t).

    Reasonable: Crusader, Cromwell, Somua S-35, CharB, BT 5/7.

    Poor: Tiger II, M13-40, Type 97.
    Lance, there are 5 rating levels in this poll:

    Very high (24 points)
    Good (18 points)
    Reasonable (12 points)
    Doubtful (6 points)
    Poor (0 points)

    You have nothing in the 'Doubtful' bracket. Was that intentional?

    Leave a comment:


  • llkinak
    replied
    I had to give the top spot to PzKpfw IV on this one. Medium for the entire conflict, TDs, AGs, AA vehicles. Hard to imagine the German effort without it. Despite the contributions of T34 and M4, which are unarguable tremendous, I think the PzKpfw was of more value to the German cause than either of those were to their respective nations. Very hard choice in this category.

    Very High: T34, M4, Tiger I, PzKpfw III, Panther.

    Good: KV1, IS2, M3, Churchill, Valentine, Matilda II, PzKpfw 38 (t).

    Reasonable: Crusader, Cromwell, Somua S-35, CharB, BT 5/7.

    Poor: Tiger II, M13-40, Type 97.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Thanks Chad, recorded now.

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  • triggerjockey
    replied
    I had to vote for the M4 on this one. It served from Africa all the way through the war and then some time after. I realize that the chassis was essentially the M3, however, a 360 degree turret makes all the difference.
    The 75mm gun wasn't the greatest gun, although it was a very good one. It had decent anti armor numbers and the HE was very good. Later on, the inclusion of the 76mm gun made it a dangerous tank for the Axis at longer ranges than the 75mm gun versions. The British put 17pdr in it and made it one of the most lethal tanks in the field.
    The M4 chassis also served as the platform for the M10 TD which at the time, had the hardest hitting US gun out there. I would say the chassis for the M7 Priest also, however, I think those were actually on an M3 chassis.
    The numbers that were produced is another factor for my vote. Not only were parts and availability there, they were lend/leased to two other big players. The Russians loved them compared to the T-34's for the comfort and ergonomics of them. I am not saying that the T-34 wasn't a good tank, just that the Sherman was better IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • JBark
    replied
    Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
    M4 will get the top vote for me in this category. Looking at the criteria:

    Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
    Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
    Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
    Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
    Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
    Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
    Overall impact

    It was well designed for its intended purpose; was able to be upgunned and uparmored to a greater degree than perhaps any other WW2 tank; served on the front lines from 1942 onward; was used in other roles as a tank (e.g., indirect artillery, amphibious assault, flamethrower, etc.) and lent its components to tank destroyers (M10 and M36), self-propelled artillery (M7B1, M7B2, M40, M43), recovery vehicles (M32, M74), etc.; almost 50,000 tanks were built not including other types of vehicles based on the M4 chassis; the tank served with essentially all of the Allies in all theaters and turned into the most numerous British tank of the war.

    And for the rest I'll be able to copy Nick's list with just a couple of adjustments:

    Very high (24) T-34, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV
    Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), medium tank M3, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
    Reasonable (12) - BT-5/7, Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther
    Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
    Damn well put. Once again I am moved to tears.

    Leave a comment:


  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
    M4 will get the top vote for me in this category. Looking at the criteria:

    Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
    Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
    Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
    Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
    Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
    Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
    Overall impact

    It was well designed for its intended purpose; was able to be upgunned and uparmored to a greater degree than perhaps any other WW2 tank; served on the front lines from 1942 onward; was used in other roles as a tank (e.g., indirect artillery, amphibious assault, flamethrower, etc.) and lent its components to tank destroyers (M10 and M36), self-propelled artillery (M7B1, M7B2, M40, M43), recovery vehicles (M32, M74), etc.; almost 50,000 tanks were built not including other types of vehicles based on the M4 chassis; the tank served with essentially all of the Allies in all theaters and turned into the most numerous British tank of the war.

    And for the rest I'll be able to copy Nick's list with just a couple of adjustments:

    Very high (24) T-34, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV
    Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), medium tank M3, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
    Reasonable (12) - BT-5/7, Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther
    Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
    Thanks, Chris. All recorded.

    Leave a comment:


  • DogDodger
    replied
    M4 will get the top vote for me in this category. Looking at the criteria:

    Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
    Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
    Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
    Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
    Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
    Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
    Overall impact

    It was well designed for its intended purpose; was able to be upgunned and uparmored to a greater degree than perhaps any other WW2 tank; served on the front lines from 1942 onward; was used in other roles as a tank (e.g., indirect artillery, amphibious assault, flamethrower, etc.) and lent its components to tank destroyers (M10 and M36), self-propelled artillery (M7B1, M7B2, M40, M43), recovery vehicles (M32, M74), etc.; almost 50,000 tanks were built not including other types of vehicles based on the M4 chassis; the tank served with essentially all of the Allies in all theaters and turned into the most numerous British tank of the war.

    And for the rest I'll be able to copy Nick's list with just a couple of adjustments:

    Very high (24) T-34, Pz.Kpfw.III, Pz.Kpfw.IV
    Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), medium tank M3, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
    Reasonable (12) - BT-5/7, Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther
    Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2

    Leave a comment:

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