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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • #16
    Originally posted by wellsfargo View Post
    9. Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause (30) Panther

    Very high (24) Tiger I T-34 PzKpfw IV PzKpfe III IS-2 M4

    Good (18) Kv-1 BT 5/7 Churchill Matilda II Valentine Char B-1

    Reasonable (12) M3 Somua S35 Type 97 Cromwell

    Doubtful (6) Tiger II PzKpfw 38T

    Poor (0) M13-14 Crusader

    “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
    Thanks Martin, all recorded.

    Just a quick point on this particular criterion (and for everyone else to consider if they may have forgotten). This is one of the few places in the polls where I'd encourage members to think beyond 1st line use as a gun tank. Value to User Nations and Allied/Axis Cause is also intended to include the benefits of other uses of the same basic chassis; such as tank destroyers, SP guns etc; to capture the full value of the type. Indeed, there's one tank I can think of out of these 21 that was arguably of at least equal if not more value in such secondary roles, than in its original gun tank role. Hint: This means you might want to slightly re-think the PzKpfw 38(t), for example. Just a suggestion though, you can leave everything this way if you want to. Just let me know if you want to make any adjustments.

    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
      Thanks Martin, all recorded.

      Just a quick point on this particular criterion (and for everyone else to consider if they may have forgotten). This is one of the few places in the polls where I'd encourage members to think beyond 1st line use as a gun tank. Value to User Nations and Allied/Axis Cause is also intended to include the benefits of other uses of the same basic chassis; such as tank destroyers, SP guns etc; to capture the full value of the type. Indeed, there's one tank I can think of out of these 21 that was arguably of at least equal if not more value in such secondary roles, than in its original gun tank role. Hint: This means you might want to slightly re-think the PzKpfw 38(t), for example. Just a suggestion though, you can leave everything this way if you want to. Just let me know if you want to make any adjustments.

      Oops .

      Can I raise the 38t and Churchill to very high. Thanks.

      Also one suggestion. People who only vote for best, and do not include marks for others, will skew the results, and possibly ruin all your hard work. There may be a tank that many people think is good across the board, but not the best in any one category (the PzIV comes to mind). That tank may come behind another simply because that other is good in one category, and really not a better tank in WW2 overall. May I suggest anyone who does not supply marks for the rest not have their best included on your spreadsheet.
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
        Oops .

        Can I raise the 38t and Churchill to very high. Thanks.

        Also one suggestion. People who only vote for best, and do not include marks for others, will skew the results, and possibly ruin all your hard work. There may be a tank that many people think is good across the board, but not the best in any one category (the PzIV comes to mind). That tank may come behind another simply because that other is good in one category, and really not a better tank in WW2 overall. May I suggest anyone who does not supply marks for the rest not have their best included on your spreadsheet.
        I don't want to do that, Nick, because it'll discourage too many members from participating. I want all participants to feel welcome, ranging from those who prefer simply to 'jump in, vote and jump out' all the way through to guys like us who like to delve fully into the details and will score every single tank.

        In that connection though, I do have an alternative solution already devised before the polls started, and now suitably adapted, which should allay your concerns at least to a reasonable degree. It' simple to the point of crudeness but it'll substantially dampen out the potential 'points void' you have mentioned.

        To start with, have you read my post #1 on the 'master' thread since I heavily amended it a day or so back? Some very important changes have been made, in particular to encourage those who do indeed only wish to vote for their #1 against each criterion. If you haven't seen it since the changes, please go and have a look now:

        http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=122093

        ... and if the method I intend to use isn't apparent and clear after you've read that, please get back to me and I can elaborate further.

        Suffice to say, every tank will get a score on all of the criteria, against the name of every participant.


        Edit: Oh, and btw - you can change any of your scores, any time you like if you change your mind about something, right up until, say maybe the beginning of the last week when I'll be doing some VERY serious collating. Just ask.

        The only thing I can't change for a member is their primary vote on each thread (the tank they voted #1 using the ACG poll function). However, even that can be changed on my spreadsheet and it's the spreadsheet result that's going to be our final indicator.

        I have just changed your scores for Churchill and 38(t), to 'Very High - 24 points' as requested.
        Last edited by panther3485; 29 Apr 12, 11:06.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #19
          PzKpfw IV again, as it was certainly the most valuable tank Germany had. Though the Panther was great, it was too complex and less reliable, and 1.5 Pz.Kpfw. IV's could be produced for every one Panther, or 6.5 for every Tiger, whilst the 75mm AT gun was superiour to the US 75mm or Russian 76.2mm. As I said in another thread, it was also immensely adaptable.

          Very High: T-34, Sherman, IS-2, M4 Medium

          Good: Churchill, Tiger I, Panther

          Reasonable: Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), Type 97 Chi-Ha, KV-1, Matilda II, Valentine, PzKpfw III, M3, Cromwell

          Doubtful: Char B-1 bis, BT-5/7

          Poor: Crusader, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Tiger II
          Last edited by Cougar1; 30 Apr 12, 12:44.
          "Do you like your new weapon? It's wonderful...Try it on yourselves, not others. I told you, this tank reacts to impulses of fear. Try not to think of danger. The machine can read your thoughts..."

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cougar1 View Post
            PzKpfw IV again, as it was certainly the most valuable tank Germany had. Though the Panther was great, it was too complex and less reliable, and 1.5 Pz.Kpfw. IV's could be produced for every one Panther, or 6.5 for every Tiger, whilst the 75mm AT gun was superiour to the US 75mm or Russian 76.2mm. As I said in another thread, it was also immensely adaptable.

            Excellent: T-34, Sherman, Panther, IS-2, M4 Medium

            Good: M3, M4, Cromwell, PzKpfw III, Tiger I

            OK: Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), Tiger II, Type 97 Chi-Ha, KV-1, Matilda II, Valentine

            Poor: Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7
            Thanks Dante, but there are five brackets for 'Value to User Nation and Allied/Axis Cause' and they are:

            Very High (24 points)
            Good (18 points)
            Reasonable (12 points)
            Doubtful (6 points)
            Poor (0 points)

            Could you please arrange the remaining 20 tanks into those brackets, thanks.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #21
              Edited c:
              "Do you like your new weapon? It's wonderful...Try it on yourselves, not others. I told you, this tank reacts to impulses of fear. Try not to think of danger. The machine can read your thoughts..."

              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks Dante, all recorded now.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #23
                  M4, hands down for me, This tank was on battlefields on multiple theatres, fronts and continents. Crews inside this tank were speaking English, english, Polish, French and Russian and probably some I have missed. The breadth of this contribution dwarfs any other tank, IMO.

                  Very High- PzIV, T-34, Churchill, PzIII

                  Good- Matilda II, Pz38, Panther

                  Reasonable -Cromwell, Crusader, Valentine, Tiger, Char B1, Somua, IS-II, Type 97, M3, KV-1, Bt-7

                  Doubtful -Tiger II,M-13/14/15

                  Poor-
                  John

                  Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JBark View Post
                    M4, hands down for me, This tank was on battlefields on multiple theatres, fronts and continents. Crews inside this tank were speaking English, english, Polish, French and Russian and probably some I have missed. The breadth of this contribution dwarfs any other tank, IMO.

                    Very High- PzIV, T-34, Churchill, PzIII

                    Good- Matilda II, Pz38, Panther

                    Reasonable -Cromwell, Crusader, Valentine, Tiger, Char B1, Somua, IS-II, Type 97, M3, KV-1, Bt-7

                    Doubtful -Tiger II,M-13/14/15

                    Poor-
                    I like how you listed english twice...
                    "In the absence of orders...find something and kill it!" Lt. General Erwin Rommel, 1942

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JBark View Post
                      M4, hands down for me, This tank was on battlefields on multiple theatres, fronts and continents. Crews inside this tank were speaking English, english, Polish, French and Russian and probably some I have missed. The breadth of this contribution dwarfs any other tank, IMO.

                      Very High- PzIV, T-34, Churchill, PzIII

                      Good- Matilda II, Pz38, Panther

                      Reasonable -Cromwell, Crusader, Valentine, Tiger, Char B1, Somua, IS-II, Type 97, M3, KV-1, Bt-7

                      Doubtful -Tiger II,M-13/14/15

                      Poor-
                      Thanks, John. Scores are now recorded.

                      ... and you can add Chinese to the list of languages.
                      Last edited by panther3485; 02 May 12, 04:48.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Went T-34, if you have no Sherman the W Allies might take longer to get to Berlin, no T-34's and the Germans drink schnapps in Moscow come 1942 (the BT and KV series were decent enough, but no real replacement for the T-34).

                        The rest list as thus

                        Excellent- M4, PZ IV

                        good PZ III, Churchill, IS 2

                        the remainder get a 12 for being reasonable, due mainly to lack of actual knowledge of the strategic knowledge for most :sheepish:
                        Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                          Thank, John. Scores are now recorded.

                          ... and you can add Chinese to the list of languages.
                          And French

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                            And French
                            I guess if he can say English and english, he might just as easily say French and french. (Pssssstttt!!! Take another look at his post, brod. )
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dashy View Post
                              Went T-34, if you have no Sherman the W Allies might take longer to get to Berlin, no T-34's and the Germans drink schnapps in Moscow come 1942 (the BT and KV series were decent enough, but no real replacement for the T-34).

                              The rest list as thus

                              Excellent- M4, PZ IV

                              good PZ III, Churchill, IS 2

                              the remainder get a 12 for being reasonable, due mainly to lack of actual knowledge of the strategic knowledge for most :sheepish:
                              Thanks Scott.

                              Regarding the first group you described as "Excellent", I have taken this to mean Very High (24 points).

                              For the remainder you are not sure about, if you prefer you could just leave them blank and then the number entered into each place for you will be the average of what other members have scored for those tanks. Let me know if you want to do that.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                                Thanks, John. Scores are now recorded.

                                ... and you can add Chinese to the list of languages.
                                Thanks. I'm very bad on the PTO.
                                John

                                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                                Comment

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