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Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

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  • Greatest/Best Tank - Value to Allied/Axis Cause

    Tips for Participants

    If you have not already done so, for an outline explanation of what is going on and how the polling and scoring processes will work please consult the Master Thread (Mega-Poll - Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 - Master Thread) and read the first three posts I have placed there, before beginning your participation in the 12 polls:

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=122093

    After you've read those first three posts (or if you've already done so), you are ready to start on the 12 poll threads.

    When you enter the poll threads, don't forget to read the Criteria Information (post #2 on each thread) for information on what's covered by that particular criterion; and precise details you'll need to register your score for all 21 of the tanks.
    47
    Matilda II
    0.00%
    0
    Crusader
    0.00%
    0
    Churchill
    0.00%
    0
    Valentine
    0.00%
    0
    Cromwell
    0.00%
    0
    Somua S-35
    0.00%
    0
    Char B-1 bis
    0.00%
    0
    PzKpfw 38(t)
    0.00%
    0
    PzKpfw III
    4.26%
    2
    PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined)
    12.77%
    6
    Tiger I
    0.00%
    0
    Panther
    2.13%
    1
    Tiger II
    0.00%
    0
    M 13-40/14-41/15-42
    0.00%
    0
    Type 97 Chi-Ha
    0.00%
    0
    BT-5/7
    0.00%
    0
    T-34 (76 and 85 combined)
    40.43%
    19
    KV-1
    0.00%
    0
    IS-2
    0.00%
    0
    M3 Medium
    0.00%
    0
    M4 Medium (all versions combined)
    40.43%
    19

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 23 Apr 12, 08:38.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Criteria Information



    Welcome to the Value to Allied/Axis Cause Poll; one of twelve polls where you will have the opportunity to help decide the greatest/best tank of WW2, as determined by our ACG membership.
    You are also invited to discuss/debate the value to user nations of all 21 tanks in this particular thread.


    9. Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause (max 30 points)

    Here, you are being asked to consider the overall value of each design to its main users.
    How much of a role did it play in the war effort of the side that employed it, compared to other tanks in WW2?

    Please note: Unlike most of the other criteria, this one extends beyond the service of the design as a first-line gun tank.
    You should therefore also take into account the benefit derived from major adaptations of the chassis to other uses; such as SP guns, tank destroyers etc.

    Factors to consider can include:

    • Proven suitability for original or main intended purpose
    • Ability to be improved/upgraded as a gun tank
    • Longevity of viable service as a first-line gun tank
    • Proven adaptability and success in other purposes or roles called upon, both in standard configuration and all major adaptations
    • Overall numbers of AFVs built on the same chassis
    • Extent, scope and importance of practical success realized over the entire span of employment
    • Overall impact


    All Participants

    If you have not already done so, please vote for the one tank that you believe measures up best against this criterion.

    Level 2 Participants Only

    Now, rate the remaining 20 tanks using your choice of options (a) or (b)

    Option (a), brackets

    Please rate the remaining 20 tanks by placing each of them into one of the brackets below:

    In your opinion, was the overall value of the tank to its main users ...

    Very high (24)
    Good (18)
    Reasonable (12)
    Doubtful (6)
    Poor (0)


    Option (b), incremental scale

    Please rate the remaining 20 tanks in descending order of merit (best at the top, worst at the bottom) against the following scale

    2 (28.5)
    3 (27)
    4 (25.5)
    5 (24)
    6 (22.5)
    7 (21)
    8 (19.5)
    9 (18)
    10 (16.5)
    11 (15)
    12 (13.5)
    13 (12)
    14 (10.5)
    15 (9)
    16 (7.5)
    17 (6)
    18 (4.5)
    19 (3)
    20 (1.5)
    21 (0)
    Last edited by panther3485; 27 Apr 12, 11:21.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

    Comment


    • #3
      Went M4 Sherman. although if Japan was not included I would have gone T-34.

      Very high (24) T-34, Pz III and IV.
      Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
      Reasonable (12) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther, M3 Medium
      Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
      Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

      Comment


      • #4
        Benchmark: PzKpfw IV, T-34, M4 Medium

        Very High: Valentine, Churchill, PzKpfw III, Panther, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t),

        Reasonable: M3 Medium, KV-1, Matilda II, Tiger I, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Crusader

        Doubtful: Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, BT-5/7

        Poor: Char B1 bis, Tiger II

        This is one of the few deadheats I’ll admit: For the Axis, the PzKpfw IV was a critical tank and provided the chassis for many other vehicles. For the Red Army, the T-34 fulfilled the same position. For the Western Allies, it was the M4 medium, though the basic chassis was derived from the M-3 medium.

        The Very High group saw prolonged service or were replacements for earlier types. The IS-2 was the basis for two very useful SP guns, and the PzKpfw 38(t) also spawned a pile of SP guns and similar AFVs.

        The Reasonable group had their uses. The Italian tanks were the basis of some very handy SP guns which the Germans took as many as they could get.

        The Doubtful group were either too old, too weak or not available for long enough or large enough numbers to make a difference.

        That applies even moreso to the Poor.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
          Went M4 Sherman. although if Japan was not included I would have gone T-34.

          Very high (24) T-34, Pz III and IV.
          Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
          Reasonable (12) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther, M3 Medium
          Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
          Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
          Thanks Nick. All recorded.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
            Benchmark: PzKpfw IV, T-34, M4 Medium

            Very High: Valentine, Churchill, PzKpfw III, Panther, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t),

            Reasonable: M3 Medium, KV-1, Matilda II, Tiger I, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Crusader

            Doubtful: Type 97 Chi-Ha, Cromwell, Somua S-35, BT-5/7

            Poor: Char B1 bis, Tiger II

            This is one of the few deadheats I’ll admit: For the Axis, the PzKpfw IV was a critical tank and provided the chassis for many other vehicles. For the Red Army, the T-34 fulfilled the same position. For the Western Allies, it was the M4 medium, though the basic chassis was derived from the M-3 medium.

            The Very High group saw prolonged service or were replacements for earlier types. The IS-2 was the basis for two very useful SP guns, and the PzKpfw 38(t) also spawned a pile of SP guns and similar AFVs.

            The Reasonable group had their uses. The Italian tanks were the basis of some very handy SP guns which the Germans took as many as they could get.

            The Doubtful group were either too old, too weak or not available for long enough or large enough numbers to make a difference.

            That applies even moreso to the Poor.
            Thanks brod.

            You had a whole bracket missing from your scores; doubt if that was intentional? Also, I can only put one tank into the 'champion' ('benchmark') slot because that's all the poll set-up allows for. You voted for the T-34 so that has to be the one.

            Based on your post, I distributed the remaining 20 tanks on to the spreadsheet as follows:

            Very high (24) - Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, Panther, IS-2, M4

            Good (18) - no tanks assigned to this bracket???

            Reasonable (12) - Matilda II, Crusader, Tiger I, M 13-40, KV-1, M3

            Doubtful (6) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Type 97, BT-5/7

            Poor (0) - Char B-1 bis, Tiger II

            ... however, my guess is your missed bracket was indeed unintentional so please let me know what you want changed.
            Last edited by panther3485; 26 Apr 12, 10:13.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #7
              I can't see anything that should be re-assigned "Good". They were either worthwhile and persisted with, or semi-shyte and dropped or superseded.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                I can't see anything that should be re-assigned "Good". They were either worthwhile and persisted with, or semi-shyte and dropped or superseded.
                OK brod, that's fine. I'll leave all the figures as they are.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Winner---T-34


                  2 (28.5)PzIV
                  3 (27)M4 Sherman
                  4 (25.5)Tiger I
                  5 (24)Churchill
                  6 (22.5)PzIII
                  7 (21)Matilda II
                  8 (19.5)38t
                  9 (18)Panther
                  10 (16.5)M3 Grant
                  11 (15)KV-1
                  12 (13.5)Valentine
                  13 (12)BT-7
                  14 (10.5)S-35
                  15 (9)IS-2
                  16 (7.5)Crusader
                  17 (6)Cromwell
                  18 (4.5)Type-97
                  19 (3)M-13/14/15
                  20 (1.5)Tiger II
                  21 (0)Char B1 bis


                  The T-34 wins with the PzIV and Sherman neck and neck, I gave it to the Pz IV due to its longevity. I gave the King Tiger a low score, because the third reich needed a vehicle which could do more on their limited fuel stocks. The King Tiger made the problem worse. And last but not least, the CharB gets the basement call because the French had the best tank of the campaign in the west, and relied on its ability to stop the panzers waay too heavily. Maybe if they weren't so confident in this mediocre tank there would have been signifigant changes made to force dispositions. Just a thought anyway.
                  "In the absence of orders...find something and kill it!" Lt. General Erwin Rommel, 1942

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                    Went M4 Sherman. although if Japan was not included I would have gone T-34.

                    Very high (24) T-34, Pz III and IV.
                    Good (18) - Tiger 1, Matilda 2, Valentine, PzKpfw 38(t), Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, KV-1, IS-2, Churchill.
                    Reasonable (12) - Cromwell, Somua S-35, Char B-1 bis, Panther, M3 Medium
                    Doubtful (6) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42
                    Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2
                    What - Churchill only good - what about Hobart's Funnies?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                      What - Churchill only good - what about Hobart's Funnies?
                      Touche!

                      I voted here basically on numbers employed in relative timelines. Further, while I believe the Churchill is the best overall tank of WW2, I don't want to place it top, or even next to top, if I cannot justify that position in any segment.

                      In Italy I could place the Churchill easily at the top. In NWE it becomes a bit more difficult to do so. On the Eastern front, it was far better in many ways than the Soviet machines in 1943, but too few and too complicated.
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Looks like Firepower is locked in and accurate

                        And my vote puts the T-34 even with Sherman, so on with the ratings;

                        Excellent (36 points)T-34, Sherman, Tiger 1, PzKpfw IV, IS-2, M4 Medium

                        Good (24 points)Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III, Panther


                        OK (12 points)Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), Tiger II, Type 97 Chi-Ha, KV-1, M3 Medium

                        Poor (0 points)Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7,

                        Dollar for value earned, that's how I see it.
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          9. Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause (30) Panther

                          Very high (24) Tiger I T-34 PzKpfw IV PzKpfe III IS-2 M4

                          Good (18) Kv-1 BT 5/7 Churchill Matilda II Valentine Char B-1

                          Reasonable (12) M3 Somua S35 Type 97 Cromwell

                          Doubtful (6) Tiger II PzKpfw 38T

                          Poor (0) M13-14 Crusader

                          “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by smallvillekalel View Post
                            Winner---T-34


                            2 (28.5)PzIV
                            3 (27)M4 Sherman
                            4 (25.5)Tiger I
                            5 (24)Churchill
                            6 (22.5)PzIII
                            7 (21)Matilda II
                            8 (19.5)38t
                            9 (18)Panther
                            10 (16.5)M3 Grant
                            11 (15)KV-1
                            12 (13.5)Valentine
                            13 (12)BT-7
                            14 (10.5)S-35
                            15 (9)IS-2
                            16 (7.5)Crusader
                            17 (6)Cromwell
                            18 (4.5)Type-97
                            19 (3)M-13/14/15
                            20 (1.5)Tiger II
                            21 (0)Char B1 bis


                            The T-34 wins with the PzIV and Sherman neck and neck, I gave it to the Pz IV due to its longevity. I gave the King Tiger a low score, because the third reich needed a vehicle which could do more on their limited fuel stocks. The King Tiger made the problem worse. And last but not least, the CharB gets the basement call because the French had the best tank of the campaign in the west, and relied on its ability to stop the panzers waay too heavily. Maybe if they weren't so confident in this mediocre tank there would have been signifigant changes made to force dispositions. Just a thought anyway.
                            Thanks David, scores recorded.
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                              And my vote puts the T-34 even with Sherman, so on with the ratings;

                              Excellent (36 points)T-34, Sherman, Tiger 1, PzKpfw IV, IS-2, M4 Medium

                              Good (24 points)Matilda II, Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw III, Panther


                              OK (12 points)Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), Tiger II, Type 97 Chi-Ha, KV-1, M3 Medium

                              Poor (0 points)Crusader, Char B-1 bis, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, BT-5/7,

                              Dollar for value earned, that's how I see it.
                              Hi Exorcist,

                              The brackets for the remaining 20 tanks in this particular poll are:

                              Very High (24 points)
                              Good (18 points)
                              Reasonable (12 points)
                              Doubtful (6 points)
                              Poor (0 points)

                              I was able to record your #1 vote for the T-34, giving it 30 points.

                              However, so I can record your secondary scores, could you please arrange the remaining tanks into the brackets I've shown here. Thanks.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment

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