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Greatest/Best Tank - The 'Edge' Factor

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by richard g View Post

    Mark IV? Underated I think, given that it was there for the entire war, with a gun that got the job done most times. What other tank can claim that?
    How many others were in substantial first-line service as gun tanks for the entire war? Kinda narrows down the field, I think.

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  • richard g
    replied
    This is a very tricky topic, specially for us less than right up with it, very cunning

    Tiger 1 is the winner of course, from it's introduction right through to the end of the war it was the tank to beat. The rest? Matilda had it's day in the sun despite it's ineffectrive HE, a battle winner when it counted.

    Sherman? Not a fan but in NA it was a step forward compared with what had been previously available. In the Pacific, what else could there could compete, a winner there for sure.

    Mark IV? Underated I think, given that it was there for the entire war, with a gun that got the job done most times. What other tank can claim that?

    Still trying to work all this out, yeh, over think sometimes

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  • panther3485
    replied
    fair enough

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  • JBark
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    In your opinion then, John, how would you re-arrange places 3 through 9; and why in each case?
    Oops...I stepped in it.

    1st - Tiger I (9.9)
    Equal 2nd - Panther, Tiger II and KV-1 (8.5)
    3rd - IS-2
    4th - Churchill
    5th - T-34
    6th - M4
    7th - PzIV
    8th - Matilda
    9th - Char B

    I don't have a reason for each selection, let me just say it is more of a gut feeling (probably how a fair amount of our voting was done) than something more concrete. I definitely see the IS-2 up there and as I read more about the Churchill I have to suspect it chilled the Axis and gave a boost to its own boys. I bumped the M4 up even though it gets so much bad press here and with Belton Cooper I can't help but think back to the introduction of Armored Thunderbolt where Zaloga recounted the the M4 was thought of as having won the war in the late 1940's. I think our boys were glad when our armor showed up and I think the Germans must have though there was a line of M4's coming out of Detroit that would never end. I bumped Matilda down because my reading showed it's time in the limelight as wasn't enough to warrant that spot. Char B pretty much defaulted to #9.

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  • broderickwells
    replied
    I'm a bit like John. Perhaps a few tweaks to the order of 2-9: Char-B ahead of Matilda as it was equally as well armoured by had a couple of better guns. I'm not sure if the Panther and Churchill should rate as well as they do - they had lousy debuts. Their performance at Kursk and Dieppe respectively hardly inspired fear.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by JBark View Post
    I see the top, its the order of 3 through 9 I don't get.
    In your opinion then, John, how would you re-arrange places 3 through 9; and why in each case?

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  • JBark
    replied
    I see the top, its the order of 3 through 9 I don't get.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Final Scores for 'The Edge Factor'

    Final Scores for 'The Edge Factor' poll:

    1st - Tiger I (9.9)
    Equal 2nd - Panther, Tiger II and KV-1 (8.5)
    3rd - T-34 (8.3)
    4th - Matilda II (7.6)
    5th - Char B-1 bis (6.8)
    6th - IS-2 (6.5)
    7th - Churchill (5.8)
    8th - PzKpfw IV (5.7)
    9th - M4 Medium (4.7)
    10th - Somua S-35 (4.5)
    11th - PzKpfw III (4.1)
    12th - M3 Medium (3)
    Equal 13th - Valentine, Cromwell and BT-5/7 (2.5)
    14th - PzKpfw 38(t) (2.2)
    15th - Type 97 (2)
    16th - Crusader (1.1)
    17th - M 13-40 (0.1)


    Comments:

    This, surely, must have been one of the most predictable of the 12 outcomes. Hidden by the averaged scores is the fact that in this poll, The Tiger I got more than 3/4 of the primary vote, on its own. That's saying something about the reputation of the tank, I think. Whether it fully deserved that reputation may be debated but it certainly has more of it - in spades - than any other tank to appear in the conflict.

    Over to you guys.
    Last edited by panther3485; 12 Aug 12, 04:11.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    OK, all entered.

    Just checking, Scott, but are you certain you want nothing to go into 'Moderate' (3 points)? I've entered strictly as you said but please don't hesitate to let me know if you change your mind about any of these.
    Scott, upon reviewing your posted preferences the tanks you have nominated as being in the 'Very high' and 'High' brackets will of course remain there because you were very definite about them. However, given that you did not respond to my question regarding placing all the other tanks in the 'Low' bracket but none at all in 'Moderate', there remains in my mind a nagging uncertainty that you might have placed at least a few into the Moderate bracket if you had taken another look at it. Because of this uncertainty, I have decided to use the default 'average' scores for those tanks in this instance. I hope that is OK. If it isn't could you please let me know ASAP.

    Regards,
    panther3485

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by dutched View Post
    I agree with what Nick said earlier
    My bench mark is the Tiger I.
    Whether for the alleged Panzer Panik caused or as a propaganda moral booster.

    The Tiger I cannot be ignored.

    Very high: Churchill, Panther, Tiger II, T-34, KV-1, IS-2
    High: Matilda, Char B-1 bis, Somua S-35, Pzkfw III and IV
    Moderate: Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw 38(t), BT-5/7, M3 Medium, M4
    Low: Crusader, M 13/40M14/41M15/42, Type 97


    Ed.
    Thanks Ed, your scores have now been entered.

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  • dutched
    replied
    I agree with what Nick said earlier
    My bench mark is the Tiger I.
    Whether for the alleged Panzer Panik caused or as a propaganda moral booster.

    The Tiger I cannot be ignored.

    Very high: Churchill, Panther, Tiger II, T-34, KV-1, IS-2
    High: Matilda, Char B-1 bis, Somua S-35, Pzkfw III and IV
    Moderate: Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw 38(t), BT-5/7, M3 Medium, M4
    Low: Crusader, M 13/40M14/41M15/42, Type 97


    Ed.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Originally posted by JBark View Post
    I voted for the Tiger I here. I have a tough time with this category as it seems to overlap a fair amount with others, as well as ask for measurement of difficult ideas that are tough to measure.

    Very High- Tiger II, KV-1, IS-2, Panther

    High- Churchill, Matilda, M4, T-34, PzIII, PzIV, Char B-1

    Moderate- M3, Valentine, Cromwell, Somua, Pz 38T, Type 97, BT-5/7

    Low- M 13-40, Crusader
    Thanks John, your scores are now all entered on the spreadsheet.

    Yes, this particular subject is very difficult to quantify or measure.

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  • JBark
    replied
    I voted for the Tiger I here. I have a tough time with this category as it seems to overlap a fair amount with others, as well as ask for measurement of difficult ideas that are tough to measure.

    Very High- Tiger II, KV-1, IS-2, Panther

    High- Churchill, Matilda, M4, T-34, PzIII, PzIV, Char B-1

    Moderate- M3, Valentine, Cromwell, Somua, Pz 38T, Type 97, BT-5/7

    Low- M 13-40, Crusader

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by 97th Foot View Post
    As the Tiger I seems to be on an unstoppable roll to victory, Iíve decided to cast a protest vote.

    In my case Iíve gone for the Matilda II, whilst it only held the edge in the European and North African theatres for a short time, it did so at a time when the enemy appeared to hold all the cards. I know the same can be said for the Tiger variants later in the war, but Iíll let heart rule head on this one.

    Very High: Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, T34, KV1.

    High: Churchill, IS2, M4, M3, PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw III, Somua S-35, CharB.

    Moderate: PzKpfw 38(t), Crusader, Valentine, Cromwell.

    Low: Bt 5/7, Type 97, M13-40.
    I too voted for the Tiger, but not completely sure it was the right vote. Fpr example, the 741st independent tank battalion which landed at Omaha on D-Day can be said to be veteran by mid December 1944. During one 3 day period fighting against the 12th SS Panzer division at Rocherath, for which the unit received a Presidential citation, they claimed one SP gun, 2 armoured cars, 2 trucks, 2 half-tracks and c27 Tigers. That's not bad considering no Tigers were being used by that particular unit. What can be said is that this seasoned unit DID kill vastly more tanks than they lost, and by superior skill, but by late 44, the word Tiger is becoming more a 'catch-all' for every German tank, ie just like 'Panzer', and therefore nothing special in the Allied troops eyes after the initial clashes in Normandy imo.

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  • panther3485
    replied
    Here again, I fall into line with the majority. Tiger I for the benchmark/champion tank under this criterion. The rest as follows:

    Very High - Matilda II, Char B-1 bis, Panther, Tiger II, T-34, KV-1
    High - Churchill, Somua S-35, PzKpfw IV, IS-2
    Moderate - Valentine, Cromwell, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, Type 97, BT-5/7, M3 Medium, M4 Medium
    Low - Crusader, M 13-40/14-41/15-42

    Leave a comment:

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