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Greatest/Best Tank - Protection & Survivability

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    Sorry if I came through as a newbie trying to teach a veteran how to suck eggs. It wasn't my intention. I can only say that I probably misunderstood what you meant by "having difficulty with". My apologies.
    If anyone gets a fact wrong it is not only acceptable to state the correct fact, it is your duty to . Don't worry about any status. Many, including me, often quote from memory, and this is not always infallable.
    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
      If anyone gets a fact wrong it is not only acceptable to state the correct fact, it is your duty to . Don't worry about any status. Many, including me, often quote from memory, and this is not always infallable.
      Thank you.
      Just to be clear: I wouldn't apologize for stating a correct fact, regardless of who was the one stating an incorrect fact. But no facts were in dispute here; what I apologized for was, I think, a misunderstanding on my part.
      Michele

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      • #63
        Originally posted by JBark View Post
        May I please point out that this started with me making a comment about the size, weight, and slowness of the Tiger. I was not expecting any change in this poll with my comments.
        Thank you, John.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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        • #64
          Voted Matilda II.

          Excellent: Tiger I, Tiger II, Churchill, KV1, Char B-1 bis
          Good: Panther, T34, IS2, M4, M3, Souma, Cromwell.
          OK: Valentine, PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw 38(t), BT 5/7.
          Poor: Crusader, Type 97 Chi-Ha, M13-40/14-41/15-42.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by 97th Foot View Post
            Voted Matilda II.

            Excellent: Tiger I, Tiger II, Churchill, KV1, Char B-1 bis
            Good: Panther, T34, IS2, M4, M3, Souma, Cromwell.
            OK: Valentine, PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw 38(t), BT 5/7.
            Poor: Crusader, Type 97 Chi-Ha, M13-40/14-41/15-42.
            Thanks Neil, all recorded.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #66
              For this one, I'm going somewhat against the trend and my vote for the #1 champion/benchmark under this criterion is Churchill.

              IMO, Churchill had the best combination of primary and secondary protection (i.e. survivability), for the longest period of time during the war. A few tanks beat it for primary protection; and the very late M4 medium, with wet jacket stowage, is a highly probable top contender for survivability after penetration; but I can think of no tank that bests the Churchill for its combination here.

              The others I am grading using the incremental scale - with short comment for the 'heavies' - as follows:

              2 (38) KV-1 (on a 'firstest with the very mostest' basis )
              3 (36) Tiger I (longest with the best primary, + good secondary)
              4 (34) Tiger II (ultimate in frontal primary protection + good secondary)
              5 (32) Matilda II (king of protection in the West, for a time)
              6 (30) IS-2 (Very high primary despite iffy/variable armour quality)
              7 (28) Char B1 bis (exceptionally well protected for 39-40)
              8 (26) Panther
              9 (24) T-34
              10 (22) M4 Medium
              11 (20) Valentine
              12 (18) PzKpfw III
              13 (16) PzKpfw IV
              14 (14) Cromwell
              15 (12) Somua S-35
              16 (10) M3 Medium
              17 (8) Crusader
              18 (6) Type 97
              19 (4) BT-5/7
              20 (2) PzKpfw 38(t)
              21 (0) M 13-40/14-41/15-42

              Last edited by panther3485; 16 Jun 12, 23:45.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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              • #67
                I finally decided to get off my arse and vote this one. My top mark went to the Tiger II. I thought about what others were saying about the Matilda but felt the it rated so high because it could survive at a time when the enemy was not fielding incredibly powerful AT guns. Its reign was short as well and when the Germans pulled out the 88's it was all over.

                Excellent - Tiger I,Panther, IS-2, KV-1, Matilda

                Good - M4, T-34,PzIII, Churchill, Char B1, PzIV

                OK - M3, Cromwell, Valentine, Bt-5, Somua S-35, Crusader, Pz38T, Valentine

                Poor - M13-40, Type 97
                John

                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by JBark View Post
                  I finally decided to get off my arse and vote this one. My top mark went to the Tiger II. I thought about what others were saying about the Matilda but felt the it rated so high because it could survive at a time when the enemy was not fielding incredibly powerful AT guns. Its reign was short as well and when the Germans pulled out the 88's it was all over.

                  Excellent - Tiger I,Panther, IS-2, KV-1, Matilda

                  Good - M4, T-34,PzIII, Churchill, Char B1, PzIV

                  OK - M3, Cromwell, Valentine, Bt-5, Somua S-35, Crusader, Pz38T, Valentine

                  Poor - M13-40, Type 97
                  Thanks John, all entered on the spreadsheet. I believe that is 11 out of the 12 polls you have completed now?
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Protection and survivability:

                    07 Matilda II
                    21 Crusader
                    04 Churchill
                    10 Valentine
                    12 Cromwell
                    15 Somua S-35
                    08 Char B 1 bis
                    20 PzKpfw 38(t)
                    11 PzKpfw III
                    16 PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined)
                    03 Tiger I
                    06 Panther
                    01 Tiger 2
                    18 M 13-40/14-41/15-42
                    14 Type 97 Chi-Ha
                    19 BT-5/7
                    09 T-34 (76 and 85 combined)
                    05 KV-1
                    02 IS-2
                    17 M3 Medium
                    13 M4 Medium (all versions combined)

                    The usual caveat applies, the more hatches the weaker armour protection.

                    Bench mark Tiger II.

                    Excellent: IS-2, Tiger I, Churchill, KV I, Pzkfw V, Matilda II, Char B.
                    Good: T-34, Valentine, Pzkfw III, Cromwell.
                    Ok: Sherman, Type 97, Somua S35, Pzkfw IV, M3
                    Poor: M13/40M14/41M15/42, BT 5/7, Pzkfw 38 (t), Crusader.

                    Ed.
                    Last edited by dutched; 21 Jun 12, 14:23.
                    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                      I don't know enough about this to judge every tank.
                      Torsion bars mean no floor escape hatch, so the Tigers are out, the tiny hatches on Russian and Italian tanks tell against them... French tanks don't even have a hatch on top of the turret!

                      Ah, but the Mark IV has a good silhouette, good armor and hatches all over the place, even between the treads.
                      That's number one.

                      The rest, I can't really say.
                      Is not there a tiny floor hatch on the Tiger II, under the radio operator's seat?

                      Ed.
                      The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by dutched View Post
                        Protection and survivability:

                        The usual caveat applies, the more hatches the weaker armour protection.
                        The tank with no hatches should be the safest...right?
                        John

                        Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          The tank with no hatches should be the safest...right?
                          As ridiculous as it sounds you are undoubtedly right. Just think: As nobody can get in it, nobody can get hurt inside.
                          Where do you get these crackers from? Sounds like something Groucho Marx would come up with.

                          Ed.

                          John, your post has nothin' to do with my ranking of the M 4 has not it?
                          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by dutched View Post
                            Protection and survivability:

                            07 Matilda II
                            21 Crusader
                            04 Churchill
                            10 Valentine
                            12 Cromwell
                            15 Somua S-35
                            08 Char B 1 bis
                            20 PzKpfw 38(t)
                            11 PzKpfw III
                            16 PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined)
                            03 Tiger I
                            06 Panther
                            01 Tiger 2
                            18 M 13-40/14-41/15-42
                            14 Type 97 Chi-Ha
                            19 BT-5/7
                            09 T-34 (76 and 85 combined)
                            05 KV-1
                            02 IS-2
                            17 M3 Medium
                            13 M4 Medium (all versions combined)

                            The usual caveat applies, the more hatches the weaker armour protection.

                            Bench mark Tiger II.
                            Thanks Ed. Since rankings based on the Incremental Scale system are valid for this criterion and you have offered them here, I have entered your scores in that fashion.
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by dutched View Post
                              As ridiculous as it sounds you are undoubtedly right. Just think: As nobody can get in it, nobody can get hurt inside.
                              Where do you get these crackers from? Sounds like something Groucho Marx would come up with.

                              Ed.

                              John, your post has nothin' to do with my ranking of the M 4 has not it?
                              No.
                              John

                              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JBark View Post
                                No.
                                OK.

                                Ed.
                                The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                                Comment

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