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History’s 100 Greatest Commanders - Round One - Poll no 3 of 4.

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  • Doctor Sinister
    replied
    This poll is now closed!

    Thank you for your votes.

    The top eight Generals heading into the next round are:

    Robert E. Lee - 43
    Dwight D. Eisenhower - 30
    Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson - 25
    Ulysses S. Grant - 24
    Helmuth von Moltke - 20
    William T. Sherman - 18
    Nathan Bedford Forrest - 15
    John J. Pershing - 15

    Dr. S.

    Leave a comment:


  • Torien
    replied
    Originally posted by PatBC View Post
    U-boat losses in World WarII



    43 U-boats bombed in port is a small faction of the U-boats losted

    http://uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm
    Please see above response to thejester.
    These statistics are a good answer to further my point about the genius of Doenitz' tactics.
    Also, I wasn't referring to losses of boats in port, I meant the shipyards themselves. Loss of production was the main reason the U-boat threat was reduced. More boats in the sea & even the cracking of Enigma would have been a small issue (more Captains in the sea probably would have led them to the discovery that their codes were compromised!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Torien
    replied
    Originally posted by thejester View Post
    But surely that was more the fact that the actual mechanism of the pre-dreadnought was revealed to be inefficient rather than anything Togo actually did.
    My point in evaluating all Great Generals is that they (the general) were the first to observe & exploit a weakness (inefficiency). Yes, the pre-dreadnought era ended with the sinking of the Russian Fleet, but Togo & this battle were The reason. Hind-sight is always 20-20, Togo had Fore-Sight!


    Originally posted by thejester
    He still loses because by May 1943 American yards were outbuilding him, the mid-air gap was closed, the Allies could flood the sea with escorts and Enigma had been broken.
    Again, look at all the work necessary to counter Doenitz. Yes, all of these tactics & the reality of American escort production eventually reduced the U-Boat threat, but this doesn't remove the initial level of success & certainly did not remove the fear of further attacks. Look at the level of resources dedicated to detecting & removing the submarine threat. The size of the convoys was immense and the relative cost to make U-boats & train their small crews was neglible by comparison. A wonderful tactic.

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  • PatBC
    replied
    look at the originality of Doenitz, what if Allied bombing couldn't destroy the sub-yards of Germany
    U-boat losses in World WarII

    Ships 264 Includes a few losses to merchant ships

    Aircraft 250 Includes all ship-based aircraft

    Aircraft & Ships * 37

    Missing 51 See U-boats missing in Action

    Air raids on ports 43 .

    Mines 35

    Captured 3 U-110, U-505 and U-570

    Scuttled 242 Read about Operation Regenbogen

    Surrendered 155 Most scuttled in Operation Deadlight

    Paid Off 37 Usually battered or "tired" boats

    Accidents 25 Losses to accidents or "friendly fire"

    Other (+) 7
    43 U-boats bombed in port is a small faction of the U-boats losted

    http://uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • thejester
    replied
    Originally posted by Torien View Post
    Did naval warfare change forever after Togo's victory? (Yes!)
    But surely that was more the fact that the actual mechanism of the pre-dreadnought was revealed to be inefficient rather than anything Togo actually did.

    look at the originality of Doenitz, what if Allied bombing couldn't destroy the sub-yards of Germany?
    He still loses because by May 1943 American yards were outbuilding him, the mid-air gap was closed, the Allies could flood the sea with escorts and Enigma had been broken.

    Leave a comment:


  • Torien
    replied
    Thanks for the acknowledgement Post Captain.

    There seem to be very few Navy enthusiasts here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Torien
    replied
    Originally posted by galland View Post
    Me thinks Torien is a naval buff...!?????????
    Just a `wee' little bit.

    I actually have a preference for air power, but that usually translates into Navy stuff too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Galland
    replied
    Me thinks Torien is a naval buff...!?????????

    Leave a comment:


  • Torien
    replied
    Lee
    Togo
    Mitchell
    Doenitz
    Dowding

    To continue with my criteria that a Great General be innovative & original, exploit enemy weaknesses that they were the first to see (all weaknesses in the losing force are easy to see in retrospect, these guys saw it in real time!), and faced equal or superior forces.

    Where would the world be today if not for Dowding's tactics & tenacity?
    Did naval warfare change forever after Togo's victory? (Yes!)
    What would have happened if Lee had a navy?
    What happened to every navy after Mitchell?
    and (again with the navy stuff!!) look at the originality of Doenitz, what if Allied bombing couldn't destroy the sub-yards of Germany?

    Leave a comment:


  • Whiterook
    replied
    Grant
    Lee
    Sherma
    Pershing
    Ike

    Leave a comment:


  • Airchallenged
    replied
    Jackson
    Lee
    Grant
    Sherman
    Chuikov
    Ike

    Leave a comment:


  • RichardS
    replied
    I voted against, well didn't vote for, Moltke as he was more a planner than a fighting general. But I tried to make sure non-Americans or Non-British were included as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    Jester,

    He told Patton and Montgomery what they could do and when they could do it. He also was able to ride herd on DeGaulle. The Commander in Chief's job is not how to tell his guys how to do their job. It is to hear out proposals and decide which one he wants to do. Really it was similar to the job Marshall did back in the US.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • thejester
    replied
    Originally posted by freightshaker View Post
    Considering the ego's of many of his subordinates he did a great job just keeping the coalition together.
    Even if we believe that the US-Britain coalition could somehow have been torn apart in SHAEF conference rooms (and I don't), this makes Eisenhower a good politician, not a good general. Maybe I'm doing him a disservice, but when did he ever show any kind of skill in the actual business of fighting? IMO his single greatest achievement whilst in uniform was having the courage to say 'Go' on that rainy night in June 1944, events afterwards in the European theatre were either out of his direct control or simply stumbled from attritional battle to attritional battle, until the Ardennes offensive, the Vistual-Oder operation and the change in Wehrmacht replacement policy made the task much easier.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freightshaker
    replied
    Originally posted by thejester View Post
    Whoever voted for Eisenhower should hang their heads in shame.
    Considering the ego's of many of his subordinates he did a great job just keeping the coalition together.

    Leave a comment:

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