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100 Greatest Generals! [Begins Feb. 1, 2008]

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  • #46
    Originally posted by RichardS View Post
    I STILL protest the exlusion of Richard the Lion Heart.

    As do I, and I'll add one more. Andre Massena over Louis Davout as the ablest of Napoleon's marshals? Davout is the only one of Napoleon's marshals not to lose a battle in independent command.
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by R. Evans View Post
      As do I, and I'll add one more. Andre Massena over Louis Davout as the ablest of Napoleon's marshals? Davout is the only one of Napoleon's marshals not to lose a battle in independent command.
      I couldn't agree more with you. Davout was simply the best of Napoleon's Marshals.

      Take a look at this thread: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=57718
      My avatar: Center of the Cross of the Légion d'honneur (Legion of Honour) of the First French Empire (Napoleonic Era), 3rd type (awarded between 1806-1808). My Légion d'honneur. :-)

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      • #48
        What about Sun Tzu?
        History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
        _________
        BoRG
        __________
        "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

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        • #49
          One that I disagreed with was the inclusion of Montgomery. He was a good general in set piece battles. However, these are relics of WWI. He did well at El Alamein. But let's not forget that the failure to close the Falaise Gap, the failure to take the Scheldt when it was vulnerable thus making Antwerp unuseable, and the disaster of Operation Market Garden where all avoidable and all due to his failure as a commander.

          An inclusion I would like to have seen is Sir Isaac Brock. It was thanks to him that Canada was prepared for the war of 1812. Rather than play a cautious and timid war, as the British Governor General wanted, he went on the offensive. Brock immediately captured Fort Mackinac. Not to much later, outnumbered about 2 to 1, he made excellent use of deception and captured Detroit. If it weren't for Sir Isaac Brock's actions prior to and in the early parts of the war of 1812 the US could have easily picked up momentum and Canada may have quickly become another US state.
          Last edited by Duncan; 31 Jan 08, 10:59.
          AHIKS - Play by (E)mail board wargaming since 1965.
          The Blitz - Play by Email computer wargaming.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Torien View Post
            What about Sun Tzu?
            I'm going to go with the same logic I went with in voting against him in all the threads he was in earlier. We don't know enough about him; he could have been a lousy general who simply said "this is a better way to do" or he could have simply been a theorist, never tested. We just don't know to make that call.
            And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
            Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
            Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
            Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by R. Evans View Post
              As do I, and I'll add one more. Andre Massena over Louis Davout as the ablest of Napoleon's marshals? Davout is the only one of Napoleon's marshals not to lose a battle in independent command.
              I must be the minority, but I have to argue against this; first off I may be incorrect but wasn't Davout the biggest example people have cited for Davout being good was when he was commanding a corps. Massena commanded armies, I'm not even sure what independent command you guys are talking about, and besides, what does not losing a battle really mean? Sure it might be because he's a spectacular general, or it could be because he was never tested as hard as the other marshals (or Napoleon himself, you aren't arguing by Davout not losing any battles that he was better then the Emperor, so why does that automatically make him better then Massena?). So I'll stick with the ACG and Dr. Horward's pick.
              And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
              Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
              Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
              Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

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              • #52
                I haven't found the issue yet...,

                Did Matt Ridgway or Jim Gavin make "Greatest General on Parachuteback?"
                "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                BoRG

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tankboy View Post
                  I must be the minority, but I have to argue against this; first off I may be incorrect but wasn't Davout the biggest example people have cited for Davout being good was when he was commanding a corps. Massena commanded armies, I'm not even sure what independent command you guys are talking about, and besides, what does not losing a battle really mean? Sure it might be because he's a spectacular general, or it could be because he was never tested as hard as the other marshals (or Napoleon himself, you aren't arguing by Davout not losing any battles that he was better then the Emperor, so why does that automatically make him better then Massena?). So I'll stick with the ACG and Dr. Horward's pick.
                  Auerstadt is one place where Davout was in independent command. Called for help, received none, and went on to beat the Prussian Army of 63,000 with 28,000. Mohilev was another. Davout had a "corps" of 70,000 men. Sounds like an army to me.
                  Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                  • #54
                    That doesn't really count in my opinion. He got that independent command out of desperation, not because the emperor had faith in his ability to command. He did extremely well, but that still seems a bit iffy. I'm not familiar with Mohilev and I'm having a bit of trouble finding information about that, but in Russia he was under Napoleon's supervision and never had the true burden of command, so I don't think you can really compare him to Massena in that regard.
                    And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
                    Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
                    Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
                    Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I did not see von Wallenstein on the list, or Jan Sobieski.

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                      • #56
                        I'm Chinese, but when I saw Qin Shi Huang on the list, I;m not really supportive on that. I mean, Qin Shi Huang was a powerful leader, but that doesn't mean he was a powerful General. He may have unified China, but he wasn't the only reason, he was a good statesman would be a better description.
                        However, I think it's a great shame that the general Bai Qi isn't on the list.As a commander of Qin for more than 30 years, Bai Qi slew a total of one million six hundred and fifty thousand soldiers, seized 70 cities of the other 6 States in the Warring States Period. No record has been found to show that he was defeated even once all through his military career. That should say enough

                        And the Romanian Vlad III, or Vlad The Impaler was also a good military leader. He not only used guerilla tactics in a efficient way. But made surprise attacks on the invading Ottoman Turks. He even led a small force disguised in enemy uniforms and nearly killed the Mehmed II ! His tough, and often merciless leadership often caused remarkable results. It is said that an invading Turkish Army turned back in fright when they saw....... 20,000 corpses of Turkish prisoners........... impaled outside Vlad's capital.

                        I think to limit 100 generals is by far too hard. Most of the list I see are too "westernized", meaning that a lot of good leaders are left out.
                        Last edited by panzerwu; 01 Feb 08, 10:42.

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                        • #57
                          Without a doubt the list is not perfect, but you have to start somewhere and how does one cull? Vlad had his good points and his bad points. If you include him, then how do you leave off other guys with a reputation problem? If you dig deep enough most of the guys on the list could be prosecuted these days for war crimes. The passage of time does tend to erode people's memories of unpleasant events.

                          One other thing, different places may have different criteria for being considered a great general. Japan had three great individuals in a relatively short period of time: Toyatami Hideyoshi, Oda Nobunaga, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. What made them great was their combination of military, social and political skills. Tomoyuki Yamashita many years later only had to contend with military matters.

                          How can I a resident of a small bedroom community in Southwest Louisiana really judge Chinese military men? It is hard! So I just go on the ones I have read about.

                          Pruitt
                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                          • #58
                            Ahh.... history is too complicated. It really is too hard to really shorten it down.

                            Talking about war crimes. Vlad really would be chased down for that. It's not everyday you get someone who impales just about everyone who breaks the law. AND then impales prisoners of war.....

                            I wonder what ACG gonna do with all our questions?

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                            • #59
                              Probably nothing. Watch us stand around like children in a classroom, waiting for the lunch bell to ring.
                              History of War Podcast

                              Episode 1: Why Study Military History?

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                              • #60
                                top 100 Generals

                                Excellent article. Only nit to pick, Washington should be listed under Conquerors/Freedom Fighters since Bolivar was inspired by our own revolution.
                                Also, all so called arm chair generals have their own opinion and although I will not take anyone off this list, I can recommend the following not orginally listed and welcome comment:

                                Ancient Era: Joab (David's military commander)
                                Epaminondas of Thebes
                                Cyrus the Great

                                Medieval: Jean Parisot de Valette (commander of Hospitaler Knights during
                                the Seige of Malta
                                Count Niklas Salm-Reifferscheidt/Wilhelm von Rogendorf (Seige of
                                Vienna)
                                Narses (Byzantine #2 general after Belisarius)
                                Don John (Lepanto)
                                Robert Bruce
                                Brian Boru
                                Canute

                                Rise of Professional Armies: Eugene of Savoy

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