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The growing numbers of Iraq vet's against the war, what do YOU think???

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  • The growing numbers of Iraq vet's against the war, what do YOU think???

    I noticed when I googled 'Iraq veterans', that the most hits of the first 30 hits were of stuff about Iraq vet's against the war (here is a link to the main site- http://www.ivaw.org/).

    What do you think? Is it Vietnam time, and will the US get out, and will aftermaths be like after Vietnam, with Khmer Rouge, and the boatpeople, (especially taking into mind the new flaring of hostilities of the Kurds vs Turkey a lot of traditional Kurdistan lies in Turkish borders)...

    What say you? Are the Vets against the war all wrong? Are they being used by some political group?

    What is the responcibility to the stability of the middle east as the US and UK were the main attackers into the 2003 invasion...?

    Should tactics be changed radically, like a known hotspot, be warned that the heavy bombers are coming, and roadblock, and screen all the refugees with ready tents, and with the use of loads of predators, brave Marine STA's doing close scouting, with all the gizmo's going... And start to smart bomb all the people who are bunkered up and try to fire on scouts? Civilians WILL be provided for, and young men who come out with their hands up, and confess to being involved in insurgency, get somekind of second chanche, if they do it in the warning period given, before the Super Hornets, A-10s, Apaches, Harriers and Tornado's come?

    And then the Iraqi Army moves in to oversee the moving back process, AND STAYS THERE, along with a fiew US-UK overlooker/advisors?

    Should the US 'cool' down it's military support to Israel, which is the worlds fourth biggest! And they are a very small country, with about 6 million people, should they get less US backing in ignoring the hundreds of UN condemnations, and start being more nice about giving the Palestinians (of the west bank, and Fatah at least, if they have much left from the ongoing settling)?

    These two factors, are breeding boys, who will come out with a dynamite belt in ten years! It's the next generation which will reap the seeds being sown now...

    Is, the US today an army demoralized, like the one in the early seventies when on a peak year, circa two officer, nco's were fragged PER DAY? !!!

    Should the UN go into Iraq if, and/or after the US and UK troops pull out?

    Should part of the US and UK troops pulling out go to Afghanistan, where many say that they should have 'finished off properly', before galavanting into Iraq?

    How much have the media really investigated what the GI's think? And what is the exact cituation in Iraq today, we in Scandinavia, havent heard really about the Iraqi cituation since Saddam died! Thats a whole lotta fights gone unreported...

    Is there a large distance between Enlisted men's, junior officers, medium level officers and senior officers oppinion, and how does it differ from those who have been or not been in Iraq??

    Sorry if I seem nosy, I just think that this is really the true meter, and if most of the vet's are against full stop, then what will 'plan b' be??

    Yours truly, Mr poundr.

    ps, remember that I play the devils advocate to get people to put in their imput.

    ppss, I put pictures that are probably viable even today in Iraq...
    Attached Files
    "SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM" - " If you want peace, prepare for war".

    If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill

  • #2
    There are military veterans against the battle in Iraq. Hopefully they will have put more thoughts in their actions and behave more seemly than Kerry and his ilk did during the latter stages of Vietnam.

    Most of the Iraq veterans I have talked to are more disgusted with the mainstream media and how obviously slanted the news reports are than they are interested in belittling their Commander-In-Chief.
    "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

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    • #3
      Let's try using a little common sense here...of course veterans of Iraq are going to have a louder voice...they are no longer in the military, for whatever reason, and they can say whatever they want. Most soldiers I know are still fighting, and they are busy doing their job and fulfilling their duties to the American People. Their job is to do a job, not bloviate about it.

      I would like to point out, though, that many of these so-called "veterans" are often exposed as frauds who never served there or are claiming awards and decorations they didn't truly earn, which shows a basic character flaw of many who decide to do what they do.

      So, I guess, in that light, yes, they ARE acting like John Kerry!

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      • #4
        It's a double standard . . .

        A veteran "against the war" is news.
        A veteran in favor of continuing to support the Iraqi government as it evolves and matures is not.

        So a disinterested observer would have to conclude that the total number of "veterans against the war" will naturally increase over time because more soldiers have gone through a deployment and because the media continue to be attracted to such stories. There is a simple way to test this idea. How many people have rotated through Iraq at least once since 2003? How many anti-war veterans are speaking out? Are the numbers increasing at comparable rates?

        There is another angle to consider as well. A person can decide that he/she is against a war [or any war] not on political or moral grounds but simple because they've seen too much death up close.
        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CPangracs View Post
          I would like to point out, though, that many of these so-called "veterans" are often exposed as frauds who never served there or are claiming awards and decorations they didn't truly earn, which shows a basic character flaw of many who decide to do what they do.
          Like the guy who wrote Baghdad Diary. Also worth remembering is that pro-war veterans don't exactly have much of a place to express themselves and be heard. Anyone who says the right words is going to get covered by any Red Color News Soldier in hearing range, while vets who remain proud of what they did have been silenced and ignored since Vietnam. Hell I'm very critical of the Bush administration and of the Republicrat 'A Mighty Dollar is our God' establishment, but I'm not going to speak about the dirty side of the war when I know that the person won't understand me or will deliberately misinterpret me.
          Maybe there are some of the real deal who say a lot more than they should, but there were even some WW2 vets who talked down on the Vietnam vets who actually fought harder and in more battle than they did in the ETO. You can't silence them so the best way around it is just to make your own statements and let the wise non-BTDTs come to their own conclusion. Thankfully, this isn't Vietnam and there isn't a dictatorial media complex that offers the only view on the war, and that can lie flagrantly without at least being exposed for it.

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          • #6
            The growing numbers of Iraq vet's against the war, what do YOU think???
            I think people should hear what they have to say.
            "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

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            • #7
              Now, since 2003 there has been over a million military personnel rotated through Iraq. So far, there are only a few dozen that are "against the war" and over a million that are "for the war". It seems like a non-story to me. Additionally, a good way to see if the war is unpopular with the military is the retention rate and from what I have seen, it is running over 100% of goal. Seems like a pretty good endorsement to me.

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              • #8
                On the other hand, I read an article somewhere just recently that claimed that certain MOS are getting six figure reenlistment bonuses. WHAT?

                I thought it was someone's hype story..... can someone verify that one?

                I found it a little unsettling for a guy who was limited to $2,000 reenlistment bonus for entire career and was drawing just over $150 a pay day (including combat pay) in 'Nam (1st tour).

                My how things have changed!

                GG
                "The will of a section rooted in self interest, should not outweigh the vital interests of a whole people." -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain-

                "Fanatics of any sort are dangerous." -GG-

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
                  On the other hand, I read an article somewhere just recently that claimed that certain MOS are getting six figure reenlistment bonuses. WHAT?

                  I thought it was someone's hype story..... can someone verify that one?

                  I found it a little unsettling for a guy who was limited to $2,000 reenlistment bonus for entire career and was drawing just over $150 a pay day (including combat pay) in 'Nam (1st tour).

                  My how things have changed!

                  GG
                  http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=...e=0&sequence=4
                  Selective Reenlistment Bonus

                  To retain some highly skilled, experienced personnel, the military services pay bonuses of up to $90,000 (in some cases, as much as $150,000). The amount of those bonuses is based on length of reenlistment, years of service, and particular skills. The bonus can be paid as a lump sum or in installments.
                  I'd imagine that it's mainly the special operations MOS's that are receiving these.....
                  “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                  “To talk of many things:
                  Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                  Of cabbages—and kings—
                  And why the sea is boiling hot—
                  And whether pigs have wings.”
                  ― Lewis Carroll

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
                    On the other hand, I read an article somewhere just recently that claimed that certain MOS are getting six figure reenlistment bonuses. WHAT?

                    I thought it was someone's hype story..... can someone verify that one?

                    I found it a little unsettling for a guy who was limited to $2,000 reenlistment bonus for entire career and was drawing just over $150 a pay day (including combat pay) in 'Nam (1st tour).

                    My how things have changed!

                    GG
                    Yeah, things have changed. First, that $2K of 'Nam is not all that much less than the current renewal amount when inflation is put in. Don't forget, it's been over 30 years for us.

                    Second, the caliber of people in the military on the par I think is a lot better now than it was when I was in.

                    Third, it's just easier to pay someone who is of high caliber to stay on the job than to start training a newby who may, or may not, be the type of person you want.
                    "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 17poundr View Post
                      Is, the US today an army demoralized, like the one in the early seventies when on a peak year, circa two officer, nco's were fragged PER DAY? !!!

                      Yours truly, Mr poundr.

                      You put in so many questions I chose this one to answer. To begin with, your statement of two officers/nco's being fragged per day is in my opinion incorrect. I would be interested in your source for this statement. I was in country for over a year and I only saw one attempt that was not successful. I find your statistic very unlikely.

                      I do not believe the army is demoralized at all. In Vietnam, there was no progress towards rebuilding cities, schools, etc. to the extent being done in Iraq. Just because a few soldiers are claiming to be against the war is not an indication to me that the army is demoralized. Even if the number were in the thousands it would not change my mind. I have yet to speak with an Iraq vet that is against the war. They all assure me we are doing what needs to be done. I agree with them. I believe these soldiers are being used by some political entity for the entities own agenda. Does the name Cindy Sheehan come to mind? She was used by the liberals until she discovered the truth, now she is against them. Lesson being, be careful who you are dealing with and know their motives.

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                      • #12
                        I too, do not believe our armed forces are demoralized. They may be tired but I believe that most still believe in and support the current campaign. You must also factor in that recruiting stations still have lots of young men and women coming through their doors.
                        It is natural to become tired of combat, of losing friends and living by the moment. WWII vets felt this way, Korean War vets also, Vietnam vets as well. But that doesn't mean these ones gave up on the mission at hand.
                        The question you ask is kinda a loaded one.
                        "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
                        - Col. David Hackworth

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                        • #13
                          What ARE they saying???

                          Originally posted by Slug View Post
                          The growing numbers of Iraq vet's against the war, what do YOU think???

                          I think people should hear what they have to say.
                          I'd like to hear more of what they're saying, but the media spends quite a bit more time reading out numbers and dates about Iraq than it does playing interviews with Veterans.
                          "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                          BoRG

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
                            I'd like to hear more of what they're saying, but the media spends quite a bit more time reading out numbers and dates about Iraq than it does playing interviews with Veterans.
                            I know it's difficult to recognize something you've rarely seen before, but those are called facts. Interviews consist almost entirely of subjective opinion, which, Paulie, are the opposite of facts.

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                            • #15
                              Well, I generally figure "real" prices today as a figure of X10 compared to the 60's. This is not scientific, just a rough approximation of things I buy now and did then and comparing the prices.

                              So, X10 on my $2,000 gives me $20,000 reup bonus limit. Still doesn't match $150k, not by a long shot. Are we "bribing" troops to stay in? Is that what it takes?

                              GG
                              "The will of a section rooted in self interest, should not outweigh the vital interests of a whole people." -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain-

                              "Fanatics of any sort are dangerous." -GG-

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