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  • 'Curveball'! How apropriate Dick!

    I guess he was anything but straight...at least with the American public. What do we call Dick Cheney? Spitball? (anything but legal)
    So 'curveball' was offered asylum by the Bush administration in return for his bogus reports on WMDs being assembled on,what, 18 wheel semis was it? This completely unverified report made it to the state of the union address, complete with illustrations...very clever. In a democracy that would never fly. I miss those days. I knew when lying about an affair with an intern could get trumped to the level of impeachable offense that the writing was on the wall for freedom in this country. God(or is it Jesus now? I'm not hip to this new level of theocracy.) bless America.
    Last edited by macgregr; 17 Oct 07, 09:44.

  • #2
    GERMANY gave Mr. Curveball political asylum in 1999.

    GERMAN intelligence officers debriefed Mr. Curveball and shared those data with the CIA.

    The CIA (and hence the Bush Administration) didn't even know Mr. Curveball's true identity until after the war started.

    ad infinitum.
    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
      GERMANY gave Mr. Curveball political asylum in 1999.

      GERMAN intelligence officers debriefed Mr. Curveball and shared those data with the CIA.

      The CIA (and hence the Bush Administration) didn't even know Mr. Curveball's true identity until after the war started.

      ad infinitum.
      The German debrifing report also included an opinion of "Cuveball's" reliability. The report concluded that Curveball was emotionally and/or mentally unstable, prone to bouts of great embellishment, exaggeration, and outright mendacity, and thus the intelligence that he provided should have been considered unreliable.
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by slick_miester
        The German debrifing report also included an opinion of "Cuveball's" reliability. The report concluded that Curveball was emotionally and/or mentally unstable, prone to bouts of great embellishment, exaggeration, and outright mendacity, and thus the intelligence that he provided should have been considered unreliable.
        Would you be so kind as to show me the words?

        Thanx, in advance!

        On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

        ACG History Today

        BoRG

        Comment


        • #5
          From: "Six Questions for Bob Drogin on Curveball and the Iraq War":

          2. How did Curveball end up as such an important source of information for the CIA?

          Curveball fled Iraq and by November of 1999 had made his way to Germany and applied for political asylum. He was sent to a refugee-processing center and essentially told to get in line. I later visited the camp, it was a miserable place that looked like a prison. After a month or so there, someone noticed information on his paperwork that said he had been an engineer and had worked for an Iraqi government military program. So they pulled him out of line and began questioning him, and he started talking about bio-weapons and Saddam. The questioning began around Christmas of 1999. Debriefing a defector normally takes a few weeks, maybe a few months for someone high-level. But Curveball was a real problem for them and his debriefing lasted until September of 2001. During that time the Germans shared information with the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency but they refused to allow Americans to interview their source. Curveball proved to be very problematic–he kept changing his story, he tried to run away, and he became quite paranoid. Finally they put him in a defector protection program, changed his name, and gave him a new identity. The information he provided was put into intelligence channels, then sat there. After September 11, when there was new interest in Iraq at the White House, his reports were suddenly looked at in a new light. Whereas before the U.S. analysis of Curveball’s information was heavily qualified and skeptical, after September 11 all of the caveats and qualifications fell aside. Suddenly the story told by this one man, who had never been interviewed by the CIA and whose information had never been verified, was accepted as gospel. In October of 2002, a National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq concluded that Saddam had an active biological weapons program. All of the info about that came from Curveball, even though the CIA had still never interviewed him and didn’t even know his name...

          5. So did the CIA screw up or did the Bush Administration cherry-pick the intelligence it was given?

          The real scandal here was the intelligence failure. The administration didn’t have to cherry-pick intelligence to go to war, because the CIA served it to them on a silver platter. The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) is supposed to be the gold standard for U.S. intelligence. It typically takes about six months or a year to produce a major NIE. It’s a deliberative process and the final product is usually filled with caveats. The Iraq NIE of late 2002 was produced in 19 days. It’s too simple to assume that three guys sitting in a room caused the war. The causes have more to do with bureaucracy and groupthink. Time and again CIA leaders ignored contrary evidence, brushed aside complaints, and even punished skeptics. Those who tried to bring truth to power were treated like heretics. There was tawdry ambition, frightening ineptitude and spineless leadership
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not sure if I'll read the Drogin book or not. Here's a review from the WSJ on it and some interesting parts from the book.

            http://online.wsj.com/public/article...l?mod=rss_free

            We see the Defense Intelligence Agency, acting as a conduit between the Germans and the CIA, handling the Curveball material ineptly, passing along sloppy translations and making scant effort to vet Curveball's veracity for itself. We see the childish bickering between the CIA and the DIA and, at times, between CIA officials themselves. We have a seat at the conference table during a heated clash, in December 2002, over Curveball's reliability between "Beth," the CIA's chief analyst, whose division had endorsed Curveball, and "Margaret," the skeptical CIA's operations group chief for Germany, who invites Beth, memorably, to "kiss my ass in Macy's window."
            But Mr. Drogin goes further. He insists that the WMD fiasco was caused by outright "lies" and by officials for whom "tawdry ambitions and spineless leadership proved more important than professional integrity." He alludes to the visits of Vice President Cheney to CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., and to Scooter Libby's draft of Secretary Powell's U.N. speech, implying that they are evidence of soul-compromising political pressure. He says that Curveball might have "fused fact and fiction" but that "others twisted and magnified his account in grotesque ways."


            But those "others" mostly go unnamed. Indeed, Mr. Drogin's case for the lying of U.S. officials is weak, relying mostly on speculation and innuendo. Mr. Drogin's own reporting suggests that the dysfunction of post-9/11 Langley -- a place of intense bureaucratic in-fighting and a willingness to go with the political flow -- better explains how the CIA came to embrace Curveball's claims.
            But Mr. Drogin prefers simply to assert that those writing the pivotal National Intelligence Estimate on WMD were given -- as he quotes an anonymous document-drafter saying -- "clear marching orders" to write a report that buttressed the nation's case for going to war.
            “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
            “To talk of many things:
            Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
            Of cabbages—and kings—
            And why the sea is boiling hot—
            And whether pigs have wings.”
            ― Lewis Carroll

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Combatengineer View Post
              I'm not sure if I'll read the Drogin book or not. Here's a review from the WSJ on it and some interesting parts from the book.

              http://online.wsj.com/public/article...l?mod=rss_free
              The parts you didn't underline are also interesting...

              We see the childish bickering between the CIA and the DIA and, at times, between CIA officials themselves. We have a seat at the conference table during a heated clash, in December 2002, over Curveball's reliability between "Beth," the CIA's chief analyst, whose division had endorsed Curveball, and "Margaret," the skeptical CIA's operations group chief for Germany, who invites Beth, memorably, to "kiss my ass in Macy's window."


              Mr. Drogin's own reporting suggests that the dysfunction of post-9/11 Langley -- a place of intense bureaucratic in-fighting and a willingness to go with the political flow -- better explains how the CIA came to embrace Curveball's claims.


              ...But it still appears that the basis of this thread - the claim that "'curveball' was offered asylum by the Bush administration in return for his bogus reports on WMDs being assembled" - is nothing but a malicious lie.
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                The parts you didn't underline are also interesting...

                We see the childish bickering between the CIA and the DIA and, at times, between CIA officials themselves. We have a seat at the conference table during a heated clash, in December 2002, over Curveball's reliability between "Beth," the CIA's chief analyst, whose division had endorsed Curveball, and "Margaret," the skeptical CIA's operations group chief for Germany, who invites Beth, memorably, to "kiss my ass in Macy's window."


                Mr. Drogin's own reporting suggests that the dysfunction of post-9/11 Langley -- a place of intense bureaucratic in-fighting and a willingness to go with the political flow -- better explains how the CIA came to embrace Curveball's claims.


                ...But it still appears that the basis of this thread - the claim that "'curveball' was offered asylum by the Bush administration in return for his bogus reports on WMDs being assembled" - is nothing but a malicious lie.
                That was my point, don't accept his points in the interview and in the book unless you are going to accept the rest of his points (the VP rammed it down the CIA's throat etc). According to the review he doesn't do a good job of supporting most of his claims in the book.

                I've seen nothing in any legitimate source that would support a claim of asylum for curveball, most sources have him living in Germany under the German witness protection service (or whatever they call it).
                “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                “To talk of many things:
                Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                Of cabbages—and kings—
                And why the sea is boiling hot—
                And whether pigs have wings.”
                ― Lewis Carroll

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Combatengineer View Post
                  That was my point, don't accept his points in the interview and in the book unless you are going to accept the rest of his points (the VP rammed it down the CIA's throat etc). According to the review he doesn't do a good job of supporting most of his claims in the book.

                  I've seen nothing in any legitimate source that would support a claim of asylum for curveball, most sources have him living in Germany under the German witness protection service (or whatever they call it).
                  This really isn't rocket science...

                  Post #1 in this thread...
                  Originally posted by macgregr
                  I guess he was anything but straight...at least with the American public. What do we call Dick Cheney? Spitball? (anything but legal)
                  So 'curveball' was offered asylum by the Bush administration in return for his bogus reports on WMDs being assembled on,what, 18 wheel semis was it? This completely unverified report made it to the state of the union address, complete with illustrations...very clever. In a democracy that would never fly. I miss those days. I knew when lying about an affair with an intern could get trumped to the level of impeachable offense that the writing was on the wall for freedom in this country. God(or is it Jesus now? I'm not hip to this new level of theocracy.) bless America.
                  The "malicious lie" is that the Bush Administration had given Curveball political asylum in exchange for his WMD information.

                  This is from Chapter 1 of the Robb-Silberman report (Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction)...
                  Growing concern. The Intelligence Community's concern about Iraq's BW program increased in early 2000, and the Community began to adjust upward its estimates of the Iraq BW threat, based on a "substantial volume" of "new information" regarding mobile BW facilities in Iraq. 234 This information came from an Iraqi chemical engineer, subsequently codenamed Curveball, who came to the attention of the Intelligence Community through a foreign liaison service. That liaison service debriefed Curveball and then shared the debriefing results with the United States. The foreign liaison service would not, however, provide the United States with direct access to Curveball. Instead, information about Curveball was passed from the liaison service to DIA's Defense HUMINT Service, which in turn disseminated information about Curveball throughout the Intelligence Community.

                  Between January 2000 and September 2001, DIA's Defense HUMINT Service disseminated almost 100 reports from Curveball regarding mobile BW facilities in Iraq. 235 These reports claimed that Iraq had several mobile production units and that one of those units had begun production of BW agents as early as 1997. 236

                  Shortly after Curveball started reporting, in the spring of 2000, his information was provided to senior policymakers. 237 It was also incorporated into an update to a 1999 NIE on Worldwide BW Programs. The update reported that "new intelligence acquired in 2000...causes [the IC] to adjust our assessment upward of the BW threat posed by Iraq...The new information suggests that Baghdad has expanded its offensive BW program by establishing a large-scale, redundant, and concealed BW agent production capability." 238 In December 2000, the Intelligence Community produced a Special Intelligence Report that was based on reporting from Curveball, noting that "credible reporting from a single source suggests" that Iraq has produced biological agents, but cautioned that "[w]e cannot confirm whether Iraq has produced...biological agents." 239

                  By 2001, however, the assessments became more assertive. A WINPAC report in October 2001, also based on Curveball's reporting about mobile facilities, judged "that Iraq continues to produce at least...three BW agents" and possibly two others. This assessment also concluded that "the establishment of mobile BW agent production plants and continued delivery system development provide Baghdad with BW capabilities surpassing the pre-Gulf War era." 240 Similar assessments were provided to senior policymakers. 241 In late September 2002, DCI Tenet told the Senate's Intelligence and Armed Services Committees (and subsequently the Senate Foreign Relations Committee) that "we know Iraq has developed a redundant capability to produce biological warfare agents using mobile production units." 242...
                  Curveball was not given asylum by the Bush Administration. He was given asylum in an un-named foreign country in 1999. That country gave the CIA access to his reports in 2000...That would be during the Clinton Administration.

                  Only in May 2004, more than a year after the commencement of Operation Iraqi Freedom, did CIA formally deem Curveball's reporting fabricated and recall it. 247 At the time of the NIE, however, reporting from three other human sources--who provided one report each on mobile BW facilities--was thought to have corroborated Curveball's information about the mobile facilities. 248 These three sources also proved problematic, however, as discussed below.

                  Another asylum seeker (hereinafter "the second source") reporting through Defense HUMINT channels provided one report in June 2001 that Iraq had transportable facilities for the production of BW. 249 This second source recanted in October 2003, however, and the recantation was reflected in a Defense HUMINT report in which the source flatly contradicted his June 2001 statements about transportable facilities. 250 Though CIA analysts told Commission staff that they had requested that Defense HUMINT follow-up with this second source to ascertain the reasons for his recantation, DIA's Defense HUMINT Service has provided no further information on this issue. 251 Nor, for that matter, was the report ever recalled or corrected. 252

                  Another source , associated with the Iraqi National Congress (INC) (hereinafter "the INC source") , was brought to the attention of DIA by Washington-based representatives of the INC. Like Curveball, his reporting was handled by Defense HUMINT. He provided one report that Iraq had decided in 1996 to establish mobile laboratories for BW agents to evade inspectors. 253 Shortly after Defense HUMINT's initial debriefing of the INC source in February 2002, however, a foreign liaison service and the CIA's Directorate of Operations (DO) judged him to be a fabricator and recommended that Defense HUMINT issue a notice to that effect, which Defense HUMINT did in May 2002. Senior policymakers were informed that the INC source and his reporting were unreliable. The INC source's information, however, began to be used again in finished intelligence in July 2002, including the October 2002 NIE, because, although a fabrication notice had been issued several months earlier, Defense HUMINT had failed to recall the reporting. 254

                  The classified report here discusses a fourth source (hereinafter "the fourth source") who provided a single report that Iraq had mobile fermentation units mounted on trucks and railway cars...
                  Curveball's reports were corroborated by three other sources. One of those sources became suspect in October 2002 - just as the NIE was being prepared. Another became suspect in February 2003 - a bit late to make a difference. The third remains classified.

                  In any event --- THE CIA DID NOT DECLARE CURVEBALL TO BE A FABRICATOR UNTIL THE FREAKING WAR WAS OVER A YEAR OLD!!!

                  Just to make this simple:

                  It is a LIE that the Bush Administration gave Curveball asylum in exchange for his information.

                  It is also a LIE that Curveball was declared to be a fabricator before the October 2002 NIE or before President Bush's state of the union address in January 2003 or before Colin Powell's UN speech in February 2003 or even before OIF kicked off in March 2003…because the CIA didn’t declare him to be a fabricator until May 2004!!!
                  Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    This really isn't rocket science...

                    Post #1 in this thread...


                    The "malicious lie" is that the Bush Administration had given Curveball political asylum in exchange for his WMD information.

                    This is from Chapter 1 of the Robb-Silberman report (Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction)...


                    Curveball was not given asylum by the Bush Administration. He was given asylum in an un-named foreign country in 1999. That country gave the CIA access to his reports in 2000...That would be during the Clinton Administration.



                    Curveball's reports were corroborated by three other sources. One of those sources became suspect in October 2002 - just as the NIE was being prepared. Another became suspect in February 2003 - a bit late to make a difference. The third remains classified.

                    In any event --- THE CIA DID NOT DECLARE CURVEBALL TO BE A FABRICATOR UNTIL THE FREAKING WAR WAS OVER A YEAR OLD!!!

                    Just to make this simple:

                    It is a LIE that the Bush Administration gave Curveball asylum in exchange for his information.

                    It is also a LIE that Curveball was declared to be a fabricator before the October 2002 NIE or before President Bush's state of the union address in January 2003 or before Colin Powell's UN speech in February 2003 or even before OIF kicked off in March 2003…because the CIA didn’t declare him to be a fabricator until May 2004!!!
                    My interest is not when they knew that it was a complete fabrication but what confidence did they have in him during the run up. With intel you need to consider it suspect until it is proven otherwise, not the other way around......

                    The Germans claimed that they warned CIA Europe that this info was at best very tenuous.

                    CIA Europe says they passed that on to HQ.

                    CIA HQ say no Europe did not.

                    CIA HQ was divided on whether he was full of it. Some say they passed that along, some say that they didn't.

                    Some say that CIA HQ sat on it because VP Bullied them.....

                    We'll never now the truth....................
                    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                    “To talk of many things:
                    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                    Of cabbages—and kings—
                    And why the sea is boiling hot—
                    And whether pigs have wings.”
                    ― Lewis Carroll

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Combatengineer View Post
                      ...We'll never now the truth....................
                      We know that Curveball wasn't given political asylum by the Bush Administration in exchange for his WMD story.
                      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                        Would you be so kind as to show me the words?

                        Thanx, in advance!
                        This issue has been addressed by the Christian Science Monitor,
                        Wikipedia,
                        ABC News, and
                        Voice of America, as well as a plethora of other outlets.

                        Searching Google for “German Curveball” also uncovered the same story from the UK’s Guardian newspaper, MSNBC, Mother Jones magazine, and dozens of other news sources, not to mention a non-fiction book available on amazon.com. I first heard this item in detail when the author of said book was interviewed on NPR, after a brief search I was unable to find that interview. My apologies.
                        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "So did the CIA screw up or did the Bush Administration cherry-pick the intelligence it was given?" Yup, I see alot of objectivity in this question. I think this tripe would be better served on the Moveon.org or Codepink.org websites.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TigerVI67 View Post
                            "So did the CIA screw up or did the Bush Administration cherry-pick the intelligence it was given?" Yup, I see alot of objectivity in this question. I think this tripe would be better served on the Moveon.org or Codepink.org websites.
                            I think that it's a fair question when one considers the fact that the original German debriefers reported genuine concerns about Curveball's reliability. That probably should have been more seriously considered when the 2002 Iraq NIE was being written.
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Alright Doc. Let's say for the sake of argument they didn't offer him asylum. I'll admit it's not 100% known. He received asylum in Germany. I never said they offered him asylum here. But someone pulled the strings, including the one sticking out of curveball's back. I' see motive and enough circumstantial evidence to be beyond a reasonable doubt. On the other hand, I thought OJ was guilty and Al Gore won in 2000. One president erroneously yet according to you, with no duplicity connects Saddam Hussein with WMDs, Al Qaeda, even 9/11 in order to go war and spend over a trillion dollars of taxpayer money,much of it now unaccounted for, and 3000 serviceman's lives. The other gets impeached for lying. Go figure...

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