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Is some form of re-colonization the only way to stabilise Iraq?

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  • Is some form of re-colonization the only way to stabilise Iraq?

    Well somebody has to ask!

    It’s by now bleedingly obvious that the current Iraqi government as nether the will, level of control, credibility, strength, popular support or smarts to stabilise the situation and meet the benchmarks set by it’s American patrons (or their American puppet-masters if you want to be unkind).
    The SURGE, by the way, was NOT INTENDED TO WIN THE WAR.
    ‘It was intended to temporarily suppress the insurgency while the Iraqi Government makes good on it’s promises to the Iraqis and to the Americans fighting and dying on their behalf.
    This hasn’t even begun to happen. The factions in Iraq have shown no interest in reconciliation or compromise and recently major Sunni parties withdrew from the Government altogether’ (Cox News Service)

    It must also be equally bleedingly obvious that only US and UK (soon to be departed by the way) forces have the skills, training and at least for now, determination and motivation take the fight to the insurgents.
    Another development is the reality that power and influence appears to be devolving out of Baghdad to the Iraqi provinces.

    Given the above, is the only real solution to stabilising the country a full-scale takeover with as many US ‘boots on the ground’ as can be mustered amongst our already thinly stretched forces being committed to occupation?

    Is this now even politically possible?

    Is there even the faintest hope that the Neo-Con dream of a stable prosperous, pro –Western, pro – Israel (!!!!) being created in the ME?

    We either get out (humiliating but at least responsible and honourable) or go in full-bore (a reckless gamble and imperialistic but hey what the heck at least we can say we gave it our best shot!).

    lodestar was called a man with no honour, no courage, no integrity and no honesty. To which he replied: "Hey, you forgot to add no moral compass!! How could you miss that one?"
    keep reading the good read
    lodestar

  • #2
    The crushing horrible truth is this, the world will go the way it wants, and often, that way will NOT be the American way.

    The US went to Iraq for reasons that were questionable. Now it finds itself in a country that truly doesn't see things the way the US prefers to see them.

    The only justification for the US being in Iraq was it felt genuinely threatened. If the threat is gone, it should just bloody well go home. Iraq will never be even remotely like a 51st state, or an example of US style democracy.

    Too many Iraqis are happy to kill other Iraqis.

    It's unfortunate, but just because the US can go where ever it wants, doesn't mean it can drag along it's lifestyle with it.
    Life is change. Built models for decades.
    Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
    I didn't for a long time either.

    Comment


    • #3
      The colonization thing has been tried in the Middle East a couple of times, already. It just converts the colonists into Middle Easterners. The inhabitants of Iraq are already killing other ethnic groups, clans, tribes without our introducing a foreign element they can ALL gang up on.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #4
        oh, yes, send all fanatical jews and evangelists and the looney christians for Israel guys to colonize the Middle east and watch them and muslims annihilate themselves!

        please, pretty please!
        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
          oh, yes, send all fanatical jews and evangelists and the looney christians for Israel guys to colonize the Middle east and watch them and muslims annihilate themselves!

          please, pretty please!
          Are they leaving soon??? I'd sure like to wave good bye.

          HP
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
            Are they leaving soon??? I'd sure like to wave good bye.

            HP
            I think that they are all waiting for the great intellect of piero1971 to lead them there and part the waters for them.
            "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

            Comment


            • #7
              ah, I f I had the knd of power to split water, I'll use to immediately reduce the world population by a few billions, with some remarkable suffering for some...
              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                ah, I f I had the knd of power to split water, I'll use to immediately reduce the world population by a few billions, with some remarkable suffering for some...
                So, we finally find the true identity of "Bruce Almighty".
                "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Some good points, but looks bleak overall.........

                  No choice: Stay the course in Iraq
                  U.S. leadership deserves support for one last effort to succeed, says a retired Army general.
                  By Barry R. McCaffrey, Retired Army Gen. BARRY R. MCCAFFREY commanded the 24th Infantry Division in the Persian Gulf War in 1991. He teaches at West Point, serves as a military analyst for NBC News.



                  IRAQ IS BEING ripped apart by a low-grade civil war compounded by a dysfunctional, Shiite-dominated government. As many as 3,000 Iraqis are being killed or kidnapped a month, and American forces have suffered more than 27,000 killed and wounded. But we have little choice as Americans except to give our new military commander, Gen. David H. Petraeus, and our new ambassador, Ryan C. Crocker, the political and military support they need during the next 12 months. Failure in Iraq at this point could generate a regional war among Iraq's neighbors that would imperil U.S. interests for a decade or more.

                  I just returned from a week in Iraq and Kuwait, visiting combat units in the field as well as senior U.S., coalition and Iraqi officials. I was sent by the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, where I'm an adjunct professor, to do a strategic and operational assessment of security operations there. I know that the problems we face are grim indeed, but Petraeus' strategy is sound, and the situation is not hopeless.

                  Our troops face thousands of attacks each month from Sunni and Shiite Arabs employing improvised explosive devices (more than 2,900 a month), snipers, rocket and mortar fire, mines and, recently, suicide truck bombings rigged to release noxious chlorine gas. The "burn rate" on the Iraq war is $9 billion a month. The Iraqis are in despair. Three million are refugees or have fled the country. The ill-equipped Iraqi police and army suffered 49,000 casualties in the last 14 months. There is no security in most of the country under the government of Prime Minister Nouri Maliki.

                  The threat we face is huge. More than 100,000 armed militia members and insurgents confront central authorities. A handful of foreign fighters (about 500) and a couple of thousand Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq extremists provoke sectarian violence through murderous attacks on the innocent civilian Shiite population and their mosques. This provokes a response of brutality and ethnic cleansing against the vulnerable Sunni civilian population.

                  U.S. forces have arrested more than 120,000 suspects and hold more than 27,000 as detainees. We have killed about 20,000 of these armed fighters. However, the armed struggle shows few signs of disruption.

                  Iraq's neighbors, with the exception of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, have intensified the civil war as an extension of their own larger Shiite-Sunni conflict for power — or as a reaction to the presence of a foreign presence in Iraq. This war is primarily an internal struggle, with the preponderance of the leadership, fighters, money and armaments generated inside Iraq.

                  However, there is no question that Iran has provided the Shiites with leadership from the elite Quds Force of its Revolutionary Guard and with highly lethal EFP (explosively formed projectile) bombs, which are a major cause of U.S. casualties. The Syrians have provided sanctuary to Saddam Hussein Baathists. The Syrians also have ignored or aided the passage of 40 to 70 jihadists a month into Iraq. (Most of them are suicide bombers who are dead within two weeks.) The Turks also have made threatening military and political moves to confront the prosperous Iraqi Kurdish regions at their border.

                  This is a dangerous neighborhood.

                  What is the basis for hope? U.S. troops continue to show determination, discipline and courage. We will have organized 370,000 members of the Iraqi police and army, in 120 battalions, by the end of the year. The Maliki government has finally gotten its nerve and allowed joint operations by its police and U.S. special operations forces to arrest Sadr militia members in Baghdad. Petraeus has placed more than 50 Iraqi/U.S. police and army strong points throughout the city. The murder rate has plummeted in response. The Sunni tribes in Anbar province have turned on the foreign fighters.

                  We will know by the end of the summer if Petraeus' strategy is going to prompt an adequate political response from the Iraqis. Only through the success of reconciliation talks can the bitter civil strife be moderated. We are running out of time.

                  The American people have walked away from support of this war. The Army is beginning to show signs of great strain. Many units are now on their third combat tour, and the tours are being routinely extended. Recruiting standards are being lowered. Our equipment is shot. By the beginning of the coming year, we will be forced to downsize our deployment to Iraq or the Army will begin to unravel.

                  The United States is now at a crossroads. We are in a position of strategic peril. We need to support the U.S. leadership team in Iraq for this one last effort to succeed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bleak?, or just ... Not Easy?!

                    Aussie,

                    Appreciate that article from McCaffray, he's provided a fair and accurate assessment IMO. I don't always use MainStreamMedia sources and usually hesitate to endorse same, but this article which I'll excert from in a moment provides a companion piece to the one you gave us;
                    Iraqi PM calls crisis conference...
                    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20250066/
                    it sheds some more light on the complex nature of Iraqi politics as it tries to hobble together a working relationship.

                    We in America tend to forget that the several years post War of Independence we spentg cobbling together 13 colonies into some form of Union was relatively easy because we'd just reclaimed independence and personal responsibility the colonies had before England had put the screws to them. We had a prior template and self-governing tradition to build upon.

                    Iraq doesn't. For that matter, neither do most any other nations in the Realm of Islam, the Dal-al-Islam. Oligarchy(despotism)~monarchy tend to be the main form of government most of these nations are familiar with and the compromise~co-operation of republic~democracy are somehting not natural for them to work with. Another point that many of us born in the West, where republic-democracies were the established norm we were born into, tend to forget or not allow for, a minset~perspective thing that biases many opinions expressed on boards like this.

                    The Sunni~Shiia mix in Iraq is unique within the Dar-al-Islam and therefore makes Iraq a surrogate and focal point for this issue within the Muslim world. What happens in Iraq will ripple outward to the rest of the Islamic world and the world in general since this 21st century places all of us downwind and downstream of each other. Not just environmentally in an ecology sense, but also via linked economies, technologies, and industries that are globally woven together and integrated.

                    Islam is the religion~idealogy of nearly a quarter of the world's population and is spread such that most nations are involved or next to the Dar-al-Islam. Muslims are wrestling with whether to go with the rest of us into the 21st century future, which may require some reformation of Islamic dogma, or retrench to the seventh century, which will drag the rest of us backward with them.

                    Sort of like teaching a kid to ride a bike, you can hold him up and catch him only so much before he has to balance and peddle himself. But there are meddlesome relatives, some don't want him to learn this skill and will try to scare and crash him; while others want him to learn, if he'll steer toward them and not the others;

                    "... Any political changes in Iraq also have reverberations around the region. Iran, the world’s most populous Shiite nation, wants Iraq’s majority Shiites to remain the leading voice. The Arab world, including heavyweight Saudi Arabia, offer backing to fellow Sunnis in Iraq. ..."

                    The time for colonialism was immediately after the invasion when the US should likely have played a more enforcing role in handing a ready made government~constitution to the Iraqis with directions they'd have to play this way until they got it down better to make their own. Similar to what we did with Germany and Japan. Unfortunate 'dirty laundry' of the planners in the USA military and diplomatic professions is that when table-topping conflict situations, they game to the point where it's 'obvious' the US has either won or lost the conflict/battle and then call it quits. Rarely is 'the game' played out through the 'endgame' to mop-up and reconstruction strategies. Result was we were "wingin' it" those first couple of years in Iraq more than the Admin wants to admit.

                    The Real World doesn't allow 'takebacks' or restarts. Fumble in your opening moves and you have to either pack it in and take the resulting lumps or learn the lessons quick and work a better plan. Islam has a 1400 year track record of "dosen't play well with others" and that momentum will rule another 1400 years of more of the same, reaping greater havoc upon the world in years~centuries to come, unless that momentum is redirected and rechanneled to a different form and means, other goals.

                    Iraq is the make or break foci of the West dealing with Islam~Jihad~Terrorism and bringing this situation to our favor will be neither quick nor easy. By "our favor" I mean the grand strategic goal of getting Islam (via Iraq) to where it can "plays well with others" and the World has greater potential for "Whirled Peas". This underscores what I'm trying to illustrate in my new thread on "... Dozen Reasons ...";
                    a) Iraq is the 'center of the board' in this struggle/conflict(GWOT)
                    b) Iraq is the best "change template" candidate for Islam
                    c) Iraq is therefore the main(but not only) "Theatre of Operations" or Campaign for the USA/West in reaction to and elimination of the threat of global Jihad/Terrorism.

                    We're not there to give them a fish, we're there to teach them how to fish.
                    Last edited by G David Bock; 14 Aug 07, 02:45. Reason: usual typos
                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                    “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                    Present Current Events are the Future's History

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                      We're not there to give them a fish, we're there to teach them how to fish.
                      ... but in the process, all the fish are dead.
                      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                      • #12
                        25 million Iraqi 'dead fish', or 1.6 billion global Muslim 'dead fish'?

                        When did our problem so conveniently remove itself?

                        Reality is we either deal with it Today, in this generation,
                        or leave it for our children and grandchildren (future generations) to deal with after it festers and grows worse.
                        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                        “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                        Present Current Events are the Future's History

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          yeah, I wish those 1.6 billion were gone... but then again things are not that simple.

                          anyways who said again that "there is no problem that can't be solved with a good old Genocide"?

                          so you're part of the dwindling 15-20% of US people (and that's a smaaaal % of the world) who actually think it's your soldiers and tax money's burden to solve that problem for others?
                          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Piero,

                            Actually, I don't wish to see those 1.6 million dead. Notice the "?" mark at the end of my lead sentence, this was reflecting the ambiguity of your "dead fish" comment and a query for more explanation, couched in an assumption. Perhaps an error on my part, maybe you were referring to the lost fishes of the dried up wetlands in southern Iraq ... ???

                            As for your question on "who said", given the history of humanity and the frequency of genocide, probably many have said and sought this as a solution.

                            I doubt that it's only 15-20% within the USA who see it necessary for there to be a solution, but the 15-20% within other nations often realize their nations either lack the troops and funds to join in the campaign, or the majority of their nation's populations lack the moral fortitude to see and do "the right thing".

                            A couple of months ago I read a report of a young women in a Muslim country, I believe it was Saudi Arabia, who after being the victim of a gang rape was sentenced to 80 lashes. Her crime was being out in public with a man who was not a member of her family, a father, brother, husband, or ... Her crime was a crime under Sharia Law, but would not have been a crime in a Western nation (so far) where we hold certain rights and liberties "inalienable".

                            Do you think she will live through that sentence?

                            Do you think she asked to be born into such an oppressive culture?

                            Do you think she and millions of others living under Islam deserve to live in such oppressive conditions, especially given that few chose to live there and are victims of circumstance of place of birth?

                            The Constitution of the USA is based on principles laid out in our Declaration of Independence. Principles that all humans, not just those within the original 13 colonies, have inalienable rights to life, liberty, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, etc. Just because we didn't start out 225 years ago to actively export "The American Experiment" doesn't mean that those inalienable rights don't belong to others on this planet. We (USA) finally learned by the mid-point of the 20th century that we'd continue to face global conflict if we didn't plant and nuture the seed of liberty and self-determination with any nation/people we came into conflict with. Only by promoting self-determination balanced with basic rights could there be a chance that former foes might never be future foes.

                            Unfortunately, in today's America too few know history, either of the world or our nation's own, and the lessons learned over half a century ago are being lost. Too few in other nations who exist and thrive today because of that principle exported over 60 years ago appreciate that they enjoy the liberty and luxury they do because of it. Of all the nations we helped with lend-lease and liberation in the last century, only Norway has ever paid off the debt owed us. Perhaps this reflects basic human nature, that the majority are takers and only a minority are ever givers.

                            Perhaps I am of that 15-20%, but I think that figure reflects more that the question has not been properly presented with appropriate background of information, that most of the majority are ignorant of the reality upon us rather than lacking in fortitude/courage or actively supportive and enabling of Islamofascism. Part of the reason I write on boards like this and present the information I do, hoping to stem the ignorance.

                            Nine out of ten current global conflicts, from 'civil wars', to border clashes, to genocide such as we see in southern Sudan have an Islamic contribution to one side of the equation;
                            http://www.biblia.com/islam/islam.htm

                            "THE HADITH OF MUHAMMED
                            By Sahih Bukhari

                            Fighting and Sacred Rage in the Cause of Allah (Jihad)

                            Editor: This is the largest section of Hadith of Muhammed. War, killing, and rage were the foundation of Islam, and it is the same to this hour in the heart of Ghadaffi, Saddam Hussein, and Osama Bin Laden. Islam is a religion of death and killing for their god. ...."
                            http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/bukhar52.htm

                            "One Muslim extremist of the Islamic Liberation party reminded his interlocutors just before the scheduled opening of the party's international rally in London in August, 1994, that 'there are 123 verses in the Quran about killing and fighting.' And he added, quite unnecessarily, 'Ours is not a passive religion.' Quoted from Fregosi, P. (1998, p.18)."
                            http://www.biblia.com/islam/war.htm

                            Perhaps most Muslims are peaceful and only "15-20%" of them subscribe to this take on Jihad and the message of the Prophet. That would seem to make it something of a balanced fight, their small percentage versus our "smaaal" percentage. Either way, I don't support this course of action for "others" in the world as much as they(the Jihadists) brought the fight to us on "9-11" and it's time to nip this in the bud before it grows and gains more momentum.

                            I see the world in a place very similar to that of c.1938 when a majority thought there was no reason to fear or oppose the rise of Nazism in Germany. Today we see a similar Evil on the grow and if not stopped now, the later 'game' will be far larger and more expensive.

                            However, I'm not pleased with the current strategy of the Bush Admin to date, it's been too little and too late, and too conventional. I'm hoping the next Admin will be one more willing to engage bolder and "out-of-the-box" actions that will hasten the scriptural reformation of Islam such that Allah is shown to be impotent and the promises of reward for Jihad offerred by the Qur'an are shown to be empty, hence the prime motivation of Jihad will wither and the movement die on the vine.

                            That's the optimist in me. The pragmatic pessimist expects the USA to tuck tail and run-away, Islamic Jihad to go further amok, and the world to see an apocolyptic conflaguration that makes WWII look pale in comparrision. The cynic would say the majority in the USA and the world will get what they deserve.
                            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                            “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                            Present Current Events are the Future's History

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I dont disagree with what you say.

                              but I wonder how is it the US's tax payer's money (and after all 80% of your federal budget is for war (defence, weapons, and the behemoth inefficient bureaucracy that goes with it) and your soldier's lives to sort this thing out.

                              the US has a long history of losing wars (well, winning the military part, killing millions in the process - sometimes good comes out of it, often it's bad- most often it's random, then loosing the peace).... i think it is definitely not in your culture to do the world's policeman and indeed, you have one of the best constitutions in the world and you should stick it it - (the US drifted very far from it since the 1930's) and promote it by example. the world loves the myth of the american dream, but it hates (and we're talking 90% of the world here) the US policies.

                              as for Islam, read my posts elsewhere, I would be happy to give the choice these 1-6 billion to either convert to anything else than islam (we'll treat the other problematic religions later) or convert to bi-fuel.
                              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                              Comment

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